Difference between revisions of "Team Fortress Wiki:Archived discussions/Talk:Bazaar.tf"

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== How-To ==
 
== How-To ==
  
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I'll give this page another day or two, and then delete it. --[[Image:User LordKelvin Signature.png|link=User talk:LordKelvin|80px]] [[User:LordKelvin|<span style="text-shadow:#0031CF 0px 0px 3px;"><font color="#000087"><big>'''LordKelvin'''</big></font>]]</span> 08:33, 17 February 2013 (PST)
 
I'll give this page another day or two, and then delete it. --[[Image:User LordKelvin Signature.png|link=User talk:LordKelvin|80px]] [[User:LordKelvin|<span style="text-shadow:#0031CF 0px 0px 3px;"><font color="#000087"><big>'''LordKelvin'''</big></font>]]</span> 08:33, 17 February 2013 (PST)
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== Why is bazaar.tf "not notable" enough to be on the wiki ==
 
== Why is bazaar.tf "not notable" enough to be on the wiki ==
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::::::: I can understand that unaffiliated people are doing such things and have no doubt that it happens. But the issue here is that you were pretty much named explicitly (to quote: "the bazaar.tf admins", am I wrong in assuming you are in that group?). As for "parroting", please don't try to weaken the accusations as if they were merely taken as fact immediately when seen. I refer back to my previous statement saying that I don't have any reason to doubt the word of these people particularly when they have helped before. Finally, this is not about a grudge (again, ''why'' would I or any related party have one? To what end would that serve?). This wiki is powered by the readers and editors. They care about the content of these pages as much as we do and honestly probably get just as annoyed when it's tarnished as the next guy. This is not by any means the first time or last time I've been contacted privately once a questionable article has went up. Whether because these people didn't want an account for personal reasons or were just lazy. This is a decision that was made months ago already and remade yesterday for purely pragmatic reasons. Notability is strained, connections questionable, site legitimacy challenged. These 3 things are strengthened by your own history, like it or not. -- [[User:Lagg|Lagg]] [[File:Backpack_Stickybomb_Launcher.png|24px|link=User_talk:Lagg]] 06:06, 4 November 2013 (PST)
 
::::::: I can understand that unaffiliated people are doing such things and have no doubt that it happens. But the issue here is that you were pretty much named explicitly (to quote: "the bazaar.tf admins", am I wrong in assuming you are in that group?). As for "parroting", please don't try to weaken the accusations as if they were merely taken as fact immediately when seen. I refer back to my previous statement saying that I don't have any reason to doubt the word of these people particularly when they have helped before. Finally, this is not about a grudge (again, ''why'' would I or any related party have one? To what end would that serve?). This wiki is powered by the readers and editors. They care about the content of these pages as much as we do and honestly probably get just as annoyed when it's tarnished as the next guy. This is not by any means the first time or last time I've been contacted privately once a questionable article has went up. Whether because these people didn't want an account for personal reasons or were just lazy. This is a decision that was made months ago already and remade yesterday for purely pragmatic reasons. Notability is strained, connections questionable, site legitimacy challenged. These 3 things are strengthened by your own history, like it or not. -- [[User:Lagg|Lagg]] [[File:Backpack_Stickybomb_Launcher.png|24px|link=User_talk:Lagg]] 06:06, 4 November 2013 (PST)
  
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:::::::: If I was part of a report for price manipulation then I know it's bullshit. And please, stop pretending you don't have a vendetta - you're using these accusations as a reason to keep the article from view even though they are unconfirmed or invalid, and that's what the problem is here. Sure, notability is arguable, but from a neutral point of view we're still a popular trade site, even if it's not Outpost-level popular. Questionable connections is invalid as proven by this page - people can just make wild claims based on their own personal bias. As for site legitimacy, I'm not really sure what this is supposed to imply since we provide everything we promise to.
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:::::::: While I'm at it, I remember your policy before, something along the lines of "if a site has ads it doesn't belong on the Wiki!" On some level I agree with that, but it goes to show that you're not just looking for legitimacy. You're looking for whatever fits your personal beliefs.
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:::::::: But alas, I'm done with your illuminati-tier politics. I'm not interested in if we have an article, but I'm pissed off as to the reasons why it was removed. I thought you would have gotten over this by now. --[[User:Fiskie|Fiskie]] <sup>[[User talk:Fiskie|Talk]] :: [[Special:Contributions/Fiskie|Contribs]]</sup>  07:47, 4 November 2013 (PST)
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:::::::::I warned you about your ad-hominems in your arguments, and I'm sad (yet not surprised) to see that you decided to completely ignore my request to keep the conversation civil. You are no longer welcome on this Wiki, and I sincerely hope that this will be the last that I'll have to deal with your behavior. --[[Image:User LordKelvin Signature.png|link=User talk:LordKelvin|80px]] [[User:LordKelvin|<span style="text-shadow:#0031CF 0px 0px 3px;"><font color="#000087"><big>'''LordKelvin'''</big></font>]]</span> 08:43, 4 November 2013 (PST)
 
:::: I am pretty sure proof-less accusations or a personal dislike for the owner are not valid or objective arguments against censoring a site from the wiki. As for it being too small to be in this wiki, consider this: There are only two other well-known trade-matching services, only one auction service (which has been down since I first read the wiki article a few hours ago), and zero sites that provide automated trading with other people. There is no way that anyone can possibly argue that there are too many sites that provide the same service as bazaar.tf on this wiki. -[[User:Gimmechocolate|Gimmechocolate]] ([[User talk:Gimmechocolate|talk]]) 01:11, 4 November 2013 (PST)
 
:::: I am pretty sure proof-less accusations or a personal dislike for the owner are not valid or objective arguments against censoring a site from the wiki. As for it being too small to be in this wiki, consider this: There are only two other well-known trade-matching services, only one auction service (which has been down since I first read the wiki article a few hours ago), and zero sites that provide automated trading with other people. There is no way that anyone can possibly argue that there are too many sites that provide the same service as bazaar.tf on this wiki. -[[User:Gimmechocolate|Gimmechocolate]] ([[User talk:Gimmechocolate|talk]]) 01:11, 4 November 2013 (PST)
  
 
::::: Proofless is a rather strong word to use here given that there is plenty of it on this page as well as the accounts of staff and editors. As for dislike of the owner, neither I nor the rest of the staff hold a grudge against Fiskie beyond his past attitude. Make no mistake though, there is no right for a site to be put on this wiki. It's a '''privilege''', and if it is decided by group consensus that the page shouldn't be here. It won't be, period. Censorship has nothing to do with it, it's a pragmatic choice based on existing evidence of notability (or lack thereof) and avoiding hassle in the future. Furthermore, considering the fact that I know of several sites that provide automated trading and have written and contributed to bot projects doing just that and are moderately widely deployed. I'm having trouble believing the veracity of the rest of your claims. -- [[User:Lagg|Lagg]] [[File:Backpack_Stickybomb_Launcher.png|24px|link=User_talk:Lagg]] 01:22, 4 November 2013 (PST)
 
::::: Proofless is a rather strong word to use here given that there is plenty of it on this page as well as the accounts of staff and editors. As for dislike of the owner, neither I nor the rest of the staff hold a grudge against Fiskie beyond his past attitude. Make no mistake though, there is no right for a site to be put on this wiki. It's a '''privilege''', and if it is decided by group consensus that the page shouldn't be here. It won't be, period. Censorship has nothing to do with it, it's a pragmatic choice based on existing evidence of notability (or lack thereof) and avoiding hassle in the future. Furthermore, considering the fact that I know of several sites that provide automated trading and have written and contributed to bot projects doing just that and are moderately widely deployed. I'm having trouble believing the veracity of the rest of your claims. -- [[User:Lagg|Lagg]] [[File:Backpack_Stickybomb_Launcher.png|24px|link=User_talk:Lagg]] 01:22, 4 November 2013 (PST)
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:::::: Well, they are proofless until you post a link to some proof, like a link to the page where bazaar.tf supports price manipulation, or the code bazaar.tf stole. It really seemed like you strongly dislike Fiskie from your previous posts: "author has a history of throwing tantrums" "I'm not willing to open more people up to your harassment", I personally would not post anything worded like that if I didn't strongly dislike them, but maybe I misinterpreted your intention there. Sure there are other automated trading sites out there, but that is irrelevant to this wiki. As of when it got deleted, the wiki had 0 working auction sites and 0 bot sites listed, yet it was deleted for clutter. There is no rest of my claims, I am simply saying that you should not dismiss a website for being too shady for the wiki just because someone claims it is (Though if there is solid proof, I would like to know) and that you should not dismiss a website as not notable enough, when it is the only working website listed in two different categories and the data posted below by Ruiner confirms that it is not just some tiny site trying to lie about its size. -[[User:Gimmechocolate|Gimmechocolate]] ([[User talk:Gimmechocolate|talk]]) 15:59, 4 November 2013 (PST)
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::::::: For clarification, I don't dislike Fiskie anymore than I dislike the next person who got themselves blocked for being an asshat. Does that mean that I have a personal grudge against the guy who edited links to viagra websites? No. And to claim otherwise is a sorry attempt to weaken the argument. What was stated was facts about his attitude and what got him banned. These are things that were logged in the wiki IRC channel. If we held personal vendettas against every person acting like an asshat on this wiki we'd have suffered a mass heart attack by now. That simply isn't how it works. As for proof of the site's shadiness, I have screenshots of steam PMs and mails that are damning enough to convince me. But I'm unwilling to release them and open someone up to harassment (which is not an unexpected occurrence given what has happened in the past). If I were to attempt to censor identifying information they'd merely be dismissed as edited. So it's a moot point either way. But even though I was not provided proof in the form of emails between the admins of this site saying what they're doing, it doesn't mean that I will not take the word of someone with a good record and has no stake to lie about these things. I will say this much, the people who I spoke to did not have anything that I know of that would compete with fiskie or his stuff. I myself have no projects related to Steam or TF2 that are profitable, including ads on website pages. I have no reason to want to promote any given page here over others or similarly remove them. Despite what people who try to use this argument want to think. It just doesn't happen. -- [[User:Lagg|Lagg]] [[File:Backpack_Stickybomb_Launcher.png|24px|link=User_talk:Lagg]] 18:02, 4 November 2013 (PST)
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:::::::: I will assume the main reason bazaar.tf is not allowed a page is because of the sites shadiness seeing as you didn't address anything else I said. So, the market manipulation part could be proven by simply posting a link to the page where it is supported, if they removed it then they obviously don't support market manipulation. As for the stolen code, you could start with those screenshots you have, feel free to censor whatever you feel is necessary, since screenshots are really easy to fake anyway, for example: http://puu.sh/59jQC . besides, if bazaar.tf has any dark secrets which you can prove exist, I don't see any reason you shouldn't expose them. If you are in the process of gathering evidence to expose said dark secrets, then you shouldn't treat bazaar.tf like it is guilty until you can actually prove that it is guilty. -[[User:Gimmechocolate|Gimmechocolate]] ([[User talk:Gimmechocolate|talk]]) 01:03, 5 November 2013 (PST)
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::::::::: I probably didn't address anything else you said because it deviates from the topic. Just like this is starting to. You're missing the point here though. The simple fact of the matter is that beyond this wiki, we (as staff, personal opinions aside) don't particularly care about someone's dirty laundry. It's not our place. I have no want or need to sabotage the site itself and the problems caused by releasing the accusations from their sources is not worth it at all. You yourself emphasized this by showing how easily one can claim that a screenshot is proof of something merely by inserting different HTML in a website. Furthermore this starts to come into the realm of actively trying to prove guilt rather than merely taking someone's word for it that the project isn't worth associating with. And that is something I couldn't in good conscience do without solid evidence like aforementioned emails. As it stands, and this is about the 3rd and final time I'll say it: This is a pragmatic decision based on existing evidence and consideration of the history of the author, and the site's notability. But in effort in trying to end this discussion: If you ask me, this site did not win any points once I saw a slur about it being a trading site "without jews" on a group post and a similar slur in a footer. Typical of something tied to 4chan and what I have come to call gamerprogrammers. That alone would have been a pretty damned good reason to remove the site in itself according to our policies and now that I've remembered this, any doubt I've previously had about this decision is gone. In fact, '''I'll archive this discussion while I'm at it. Clearly it's reached the end of its life.''' -- [[User:Lagg|Lagg]] [[File:Backpack_Stickybomb_Launcher.png|24px|link=User_talk:Lagg]] 02:24, 5 November 2013 (PST)
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:::::: You mentioned notability, here's a 3rd party indication of traffic on the major TF2 trading-related sites (provided by alexa.com): http://puu.sh/52e5y -- maybe it's time to remove tf2items and tf2b since they've fallen lower than bazaar.tf? I personally think bazaar deserve its place. Maybe you don't use it or have never heard of it, but that doesn't mean it's not used by many in the community. - [[User:Ruiner|Ruiner]] ([[User talk:Ruiner|talk]]) 07:44, 4 November 2013 (PST)
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:::::::I would not have any objections to either of those, if the community thinks so. However, the main reason that previous sites have been removed have largely been because the site itself stops being maintained by their creators, and I know for a fact that at least in the case of TF2B, Athernar still maintains it (I've pestered him in the past a few times regarding new features that I think should be added).
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:::::::Really, it's up to the community. If they think Bazaar.tf deserves a page, and TF2B and TF2Items and OPTF2 don't (which, I should emphasize, are mutually exclusive issues), then they should make this clear in a discussion page. --[[Image:User LordKelvin Signature.png|link=User talk:LordKelvin|80px]] [[User:LordKelvin|<span style="text-shadow:#0031CF 0px 0px 3px;"><font color="#000087"><big>'''LordKelvin'''</big></font>]]</span> 08:53, 4 November 2013 (PST)
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:::::::: I think it's about high time this is ended. It's been decided for quite some time now, and that decision reinforced, that this doesn't deserve a page on this wiki. If you believe other sites don't either, mark them as such. The page will now be locked since people are unwilling to shed the delusion that they have a right to self-promotion here. -- [[User:Lagg|Lagg]] [[File:Backpack_Stickybomb_Launcher.png|24px|link=User_talk:Lagg]] 17:35, 4 November 2013 (PST)
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:::::::::Bazaar.tf getting a wiki page is no more self promotion than any other website getting one. The last page was removed because A. It was bad, which is irrelevant when making a new wiki page and B. The website seemed too small at the time, which we have already proven no longer applies. -[[User:Gimmechocolate|Gimmechocolate]] ([[User talk:Gimmechocolate|talk]]) 01:03, 5 November 2013 (PST)
  
 
:The previous page was deleted because, as I said, it was more of a how-to rather than an actual page that documented the features of the site. The quality of the previous page was substandard, so it was deleted. Additionally, I believe the site was still in beta at the time, and we have policies against creating pages for incomplete products.
 
:The previous page was deleted because, as I said, it was more of a how-to rather than an actual page that documented the features of the site. The quality of the previous page was substandard, so it was deleted. Additionally, I believe the site was still in beta at the time, and we have policies against creating pages for incomplete products.
 
:Different rules apply to community sites, as opposed to in-game content, I should think that would be obvious. I'm still not fully convinced that this site is notable enough to merit a page on the Wiki (mainly because the only place I've actually seen it mentioned is on 4chan, and even then only a very few times), and the Wiki should not be used as a form of advertisement in any case, otherwise every small TF2 site would demand to have its own page, which would create clutter. --[[Image:User LordKelvin Signature.png|link=User talk:LordKelvin|80px]] [[User:LordKelvin|<span style="text-shadow:#0031CF 0px 0px 3px;"><font color="#000087"><big>'''LordKelvin'''</big></font>]]</span> 22:28, 3 November 2013 (PST)
 
:Different rules apply to community sites, as opposed to in-game content, I should think that would be obvious. I'm still not fully convinced that this site is notable enough to merit a page on the Wiki (mainly because the only place I've actually seen it mentioned is on 4chan, and even then only a very few times), and the Wiki should not be used as a form of advertisement in any case, otherwise every small TF2 site would demand to have its own page, which would create clutter. --[[Image:User LordKelvin Signature.png|link=User talk:LordKelvin|80px]] [[User:LordKelvin|<span style="text-shadow:#0031CF 0px 0px 3px;"><font color="#000087"><big>'''LordKelvin'''</big></font>]]</span> 22:28, 3 November 2013 (PST)
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== Notability ==
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I believe that this page should be allowed another chance.
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Full disclaimer: I am a Bazaar "Affiliate". All this means is that my name on Bazaar is blue and that my community has a banner on Bazaar's communities page.
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In the interest of being accurate and informative, the wiki's admins should not allow their personal feelings to interfere. bazaar.tf is certainly popular enough to be considered "notable", regardless of how the site's staff may or may not have acted. The fact that this page was previously very poorly-written should not bar it from existing in the future, after being rewritten of course. bazaar.tf is still very actively maintained and developed. [http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/1s9b85/cookie_clickeresque_type_of_game_based_on_tf2/ A reddit post] about a browser game developed by bazaar.tf reached the front page of /r/tf2.
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If the main reason for barring the creation of a new bazaar.tf wiki page is the fact that in the past it was merely used for self-promotion, then the problem is not with Bazaar itself. The problem was with whoever edited the page previously. Instead, allow someone else to create a wiki page. -- [[User:Dr. McKay|Dr. McKay]] ([[User talk:Dr. McKay|talk]]) 14:26, 14 January 2014 (PST)
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::Just looking at the Alexa rankings, Bazaar is ranked slightly above TF2 Warehouse, and significantly above TF2 Trading Post, both of which are listed as notable community trading websites.  The 3-month trend shows the rank has improved by about 90% in that time period, so in regards to popularity there isn't much to be debated.  The about page also shows information about popularity.  As I write this, 154k total users, 400 online, 640k trades, and 118k automated trade offers.
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::I hate to bring up the old argument that seemed to have shut this page down in the first place, but I'm not exactly sure how this kind of site could fix prices (if you know, please explain!).  From what I can tell, current item prices are gathered from [[backpack.tf]] automatically, with the source cited alongside of the price, and again on the about page.  As far as individual trade prices goes, that's up to the users.
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::The contributions to automated trading by the site's developer(s) is quite significant in itself, and I believe the exact same bot-base has been adopted by backpack.tf[http://steamcommunity.com/groups/meetthestats/announcements/detail/1495491572933214028].  If a site has reached the point where it's affecting and contributing to the largest community sites, I certainly think it should have its own page.  [[User:Rannmann|Rannmann]] ([[User talk:Rannmann|talk]]) 15:08, 14 January 2014 (PST)
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:::I take it nobody with authority cares to respond to this? [[User:Dr. McKay|Dr. McKay]] ([[User talk:Dr. McKay|talk]]) 18:09, 12 May 2014 (PDT)
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:::Sure. --'''[[User:Piemanmoo|Piemanmoo]]''' 19:40, 12 May 2014 (PDT)
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{{Discussion close|end|elsewhere=no}}

Latest revision as of 20:55, 11 January 2024