Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion

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Imperial vs metric

I've noticed that a bunch of pages, it only mentions imperial. I think the standard should be metric, then imperial. On the English speed tables metric is excluded altogether, and I don't see a reason why. I've asked Tark to look at this but he didn't understand the table. Might be a minor topic, but this is what I think.
GrampaSwood (talk) 09:12, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I'd support the metric system over imperial anytime :> Killicon flaming huntsman.png VasyaTheWizard (talk) • (contributions) 16:05, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Setting a standarized response to events of enormous importance?

Hi! Context - So, it's been a day since the now historical and infamous leak of source code for TF2 (the leaked code is from around late 2016 or early 2017), and as a consequence of it there has been a massive amount of rumors and misinformation regarding whether the live build of TF2 had its security compromised, specifically the remote code execution (RCE) exploit being possible (as we thought at the time). As it turns out, the RCE was false information (that we had learned about several hours later and didnt know at the time of adding/discussing banner) that was claimed by many people and we were alarmed by it, in response putting up a banner informing users of such possibility. In my overlook - it was a good decision, albeit it might be considered to be a rushed move.
My questions here are two - 1 - How do we response in the future? Do we, for example, accept speculation that entails potential security exploits/risks as facts for sake of "Better safe than sorry", until we get an official word OR someone with an engine knowledge to do an "expertise" for us or do we simply stay quiet on the situation? We could alternatively word any banners in safe way so that we show we lack confirmation for any information, but we're putting a warning just in case?
2 - if it isnt a security-risk exploit, but an exploit or any other event of high importance (remember Crate depression of 2019?) do we also put up an informative banner? excuse poor formatting
EDIT: also forgot to mention that another factor is of course how severe the situation is and how much time should be taken to make a decision - in this instance of potential RCE, the decision had to be taken immediately given how dangerous it is/was. - Goodjob (talk)

Discord vs IRC

So to settle this discussion, because it keeps popping up, we might as well make a discussion on it so we can point to other users.

I see no reason to step over, the only real thing that it has is a better UI that's less scary for new users. The support team for Discord is garbage, if you have a problem (E.g. someone posting illegal content or people starting a witch hunt) they just tell you to ignore the problem. I've reported both of the examples I gave, and got the response to block the user and/or leave the server. The situation we had with a user constantly coming back to harass us is one that wouldn't have been resolved as quickly as it had been on IRC. The only feature I can think of that would be more useful is an embed feature, which can also happen in a client. I find that Discord is less stable with servers, as there are the occasional outages that I have never experienced in IRC (Only time I get disconnected from IRC is when my own internet fucks up). Furthermore I think that Discord requiring a phone number to sign up now (If you don't have an account yet, you HAVE to include a phone number otherwise you can't get access) will limit access unnecessarily.

TL;DR: Discord doesnt have any features I see needed, and it's just more of a hassle.
GrampaSwood (talk) 17:58, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I think we should move to Steam when Valve fixes the history auto-deletion bug (if that's really a bug, I dunno), it's kinda-like Discord but you don't need to register it, and most (if not all) users on the Wiki have Steam. What you said about Discord needing a phone number to register may not be true, I just entered on their website, clicked on Register and it haven't asked for a phone number (unless it's after I input an e-mail and password), unless that's a planned future "feature". Personally I don't like Discord, I only use it to talk with close friends, so it's most likely that I wouldn't enter the Wiki Server either, but that's just me. User Gabrielwoj Signature Icon.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 1.pngUser Gabrielwoj Signature 2.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 3.png 20:08, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
After you create an account you go into the software and it tells you to put in a phone number with no way of removing it.
GrampaSwood (talk) 20:10, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
I guess it's even worse like this since it doesn't ask prior to your registration (like how it "should" be, but honestly it shouldn't need to write a phone number to begin with). User Gabrielwoj Signature Icon.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 1.pngUser Gabrielwoj Signature 2.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 3.png 20:14, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
Also, I didn't mentioned, the only downside with Steam (other than the chat history deleting itself) is that Steam servers are very unstable. I've lost count how many times I had conversations interrupted with someone (on Direct Messages, not even on a Group) because of Steam servers. User Gabrielwoj Signature Icon.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 1.pngUser Gabrielwoj Signature 2.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 3.png 20:25, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
Some of us can't access Steam or Discord at work. — Tark lm(pt-br) 20:29, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. User Gabrielwoj Signature Icon.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 1.pngUser Gabrielwoj Signature 2.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 3.png 20:56, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Very Strong Oppose To Discord -- a platform constantly issuing false bans at random and worsening their software with every update is completely unreliable, not to mention the extra points Grampa put up. I can expect there's a reason many wikis still use IRC.
I am neutral on Steam, it has a couple differences from Discord but is ultimately really similar in terms of features (and we can also guarantee a Steam account when the wiki is for a Steam game). I already own a Steam Chat containing several other people on the Wiki, so it would be easy to simply add more people as segue. However, Garbielwoj I should tell you that the message deletion is not a bug, as Steam is intended for regular conversations and not archives, you should not be holding out for a "fix". However, this would not be much of a downgrade as IRC does not archive either so we could continue logging to the website.
Ultimately, I don't think there's any huge glaring problems with IRC. Sure, you can't post images and such, but it's easily workaround, we've been using it for years, and there's no glaring problems/micropurchases/proprietary other problems. In short: either Steam or IRC is fine with me at least. Naleksuh (talk) 21:17, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

"IRC does not archive either" - IRC does log chat. It has since the start. However, I initially thought it archived everything. Upon checking, it seems you can only go about 3 years back in the archives at any time. The site won't load anything past a certain point in 2017, so for example you can still view May 1st, 2017's logs. Unless this is just a technical issue with the site or something? I swear you used to be able to go back way more before. 404UNF (talk) 00:47, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
As Naleksuh said, logging is done by us, it's not an IRC feature. It should't be a problem if we ever decide to move to a better service.
You can't see pre-2017 messages because the database got corrupted. — Tark lm(pt-br) 04:42, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Naleksuh and Swood here, very strongly opposing Discord. It's a closed, proprietary platform that is extremely unreliable with its constant outages, the likes of which I have never experienced on IRC myself (could depend on the client's internet connection?). Somehow they manage to make it worse every update and it's already starting to look and feel Facebook-ish. At any point in time, they can decide to do literally anything to your accounts/servers (remember how it didn't use to require a phone number?), and you'd have no choice but to comply and bend over. What if they locked your account and started requiring photos of your ID? Not to mention their constant controversies - remember that youtuber guy getting banned for personal drama with a mod? Remember how they said that they don't consider pedophilia a violation of their ToS? With just that alone I personally consider Discord a disgusting service to stay away from. A modern IRC client beats Discord in every aspect - it's free, open source, anonymous when necessary, decentralized, you can self-host servers, run your own custom clients, and you don't risk getting booted off the entire network because a mod disagrees with you or something.
/endrant, please excuse any strong language I used here. I promise I'm not Richard Stallman's alt account :> Killicon flaming huntsman.png VasyaTheWizard (talk) • (contributions) 05:17, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Pedophilia has been against their ToS since the start, but it was specifically furry cp (called "cub") that they would allow (Their staff is known for being almost all furries, the guy who responded saying that cub was fine had a furry pfp as well). That, in my opinion, is worse. Also to add to Discord's bugs: Sometimes sets already read messages to unread which is very annoying/confusing (Did Discord bug out again or did someone delete their message?), muting certain categories and collapsing them will randomly make them uncollapse and add a read message notifier. If we were to switch to Discord, I'd expect a lot more users because people join all kinds of Discord for stuff they might be interested in, this might lead to the server slowing down (If the Subnautica Discord announces anything in their announcement channel you can't see it because the channel won't load due to an overload of users trying to go there).
GrampaSwood (talk) 09:40, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Changes to where SCM links should be

Some cosmetic items can not be marketable in their unique form. (ie the Team Captain) Most of these do not have SCM links in their infoboxes. However, some items which can not be marketable in their unique (non killstreak) form (ie the Conscientious Objector) do have SCM links. Should all items that have a marketable quality have this, or only items that can be marketable in their base form? Salty DogInfernalShroom (Talk) 03:29, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

We've added the market buy button just a while ago, so it's normal that some pages weren't updated yet (as we don't have many editors actively checking them). — Tark lm(pt-br) 04:28, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Source code on the wiki

With the recent source leak, how do we handle source code on the wiki? I've generally accepted it as being allowed as long as there is no link to download it and it's just a picture, but I don't know if there are any legal troubles with this. If we do allow it, how can we verify that it is real TF2 source code and not just something that looks like it quickly written?
GrampaSwood (talk) 08:46, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

The problems start and end when you redistribute code with a proprietary license. There's no trickery or technicality around it. I don't want Valve's lawyers putting their spiel on our talk page cause both them and us knows that would be the silliest thing. So avoid putting any of the code on the wiki, even if alleged, even if screenshot of monitor displaying screenshot. Thank you for bringing up question though. Probably needed addressing. -- Lagg Backpack Stickybomb Launcher.png 18:42, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Reverting image deletions

I don't know if this is a bug or a limitation of MediaWiki, but I attempted to restore some deleted files (images), and it seems that these are not coming back (I checked the pages for it, and the images are not showing up), it only restored their page, but not the file... Looks like they were deleted forever: tEYLLvI.png
Looks like the only way we could get those images back are hoping for Google cache or WayBackMachine. User Gabrielwoj Signature Icon.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 1.pngUser Gabrielwoj Signature 2.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 3.png 19:21, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

I think it's because RJ recently did a purge of images. Pretty sure it deleted any images that could be rolled back I guess.
GrampaSwood (talk) 19:36, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
Well I managed to get the pictures back by visiting https://dev.wiki.tf/wiki/Killstreak_Kit, I didn't even knew dev.wiki.tf was a thing, I found out searching on Google for Killstreak Kit images, then I went to someone's UserPage on dev.wiki.tf and searched Killstreak Kit from there. User Gabrielwoj Signature Icon.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 1.pngUser Gabrielwoj Signature 2.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 3.png 20:00, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Featured pages in other languages

How featured pages work in languages other than english? Only english pages gets featured, but theres featured article section on every main page? Are we suppose to update local main pages to match same features article as english one? And even then, the featured page is sometimes outdated in different language. Do translated fetaured pages are also featured? I propose complete removal of featured page section on main pages other than english, and replacing it with something else. Killicon hhg.pngFiatSeicentoKillicon hhg.png 09:36, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Dereko is not sure about "Do translated fetaured pages are also featured", however, it's possible to update them in Template:FeaturedArticle (for example, Template:FeaturedArticle/zh-hans ), and there is no need to remove them. Like you said, featured page is sometimes outdated in different language, you can keep an eye (by using watchlist) on it to keep updating, if you'd ilke to.

User Dereko Name.png 09:57, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Change to trivia guidelines

There's been multiple instances in the past where I've undone trivia which broke the "no speculation" guideline. Personally I think this guideline is a good guideline since it prevents false info, however I believe it needs some changes. I've undone trivia which I personally did see the connection with (See the Mercenary Park fiasco. TL;DR: helicopter looks like a real-life one, but because no source I removed it). A change to include very obvious things or pointing out similarities with what something may be based off of (E.g. like the helicopter examples. Maybe include a {{cite}} or similar notice) or just allowing them to be moved to a "notes" section would suffice. I personally wouldn't mind either or maybe both. I do think something should be done regarding this. GrampaSwood (talk) 19:28, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Note that loosening criteria for what qualifies as good trivia is a floodgate as it is. After a while it'll just end up being cloud watchers putting their favorite pet notion into the game. -- Lagg Backpack Stickybomb Launcher.png 19:40, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
Loosening criteria for what qualifies as good trivia can't open a floodgate if you know what to let through. For example, before the eighteen RED and BLU UberCharged avatars were released by Valve (nine for each team respectively), two users ::on the FacePunch forum, Occlusion and Fearlezz, created a set of avatars very similar to what Valve would later release. Some things to keep in mind are:
  • For every Valve title that was given a set of avatars, Team Fortress 2 was the first to ever be given three avatar sets. Every other Valve title has only ever received one set of avatars (L4D being the exception with special infected avatars).
  • Before Valve even ever rolled out these avatars, Robin Walker was seen using one of the avatars created by Occlusion and Fearlezz.
Do you think this was an intentional addition to the avatar pool to show Robin Walker's appreciation for the avatars created by Occlusion and Fearlezz? Or do you think this was all purely coincidental, and thusly, should be thrown out under
the tense that since Valve never made an official statement on the matter, it's all speculation and theory crafting?
Synth (talk) 20:07, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
Synth: This thread is specific to adjustments of Trivia policy and process. I don’t intend to discuss unresolved examples here. Any removal of a contribution is a de facto open invitation to the contributor to discuss it on the remover’s talk page (unless the remover starts a discussion with you elsewhere). GrampaSwood’s talk page would be the place for your discussion or you may take this subject to my talk page and invite GrampaSwood.
M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 18:59, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
I think the common sore point in Trivia submissions and reversions is the question of speculation. "Guesses" and "conjecture" are rather easy to define, but the speculation is confusing to many; to both clueless posters and "subject experts" (generously speaking). The clueless posters really haven’t contributed anything, and their post may be reverted with gentle explanation, but the contributions by subject experts (assuming notability and relevance) can be a positive contribution. The challenge is for the reviewing editors to figure out which is the case for each contribution. The clueless poster may rant about the revert, even with gentle explanation; that is the simple nature of the beast. The subject expert gets a different impression, especially those that are on only going to make one post ever on the subject of their joy, if not profession. The subject expert is not going to understand how their practiced, maybe even professional, knowledge is speculation. In short, the word "Speculation" in the edit summary alone is very insufficient in either situation. The noob will not know what speculation means (yet), and the expert will know they are not speculating. The clueless posters, ideally, should be led to an understanding of the wiki’s processes. But, IMO, the subject expert should be engaged to provide substantiation to the reviewer. Moreover, if there is nothing in the edit summary (except "Speculation") or the OP’s talk page, there is no way for the patroller to know if there was any other collaboration.
So, rather than suggesting loosening of the criteria, I suggest a focus on process. The published "Removing trivia" guidance is rather binary, either keep or remove immediately. What if it might not be Trivia? Maybe it is not necessary to remove every non-Trivia (almost Trivia) immediately?
My Personal Trivia Patrol Practice is to first to assess the contribution for any virtue and either leave it in the Trivia if it is good and fitting or adapt it for inclusion elsewhere, collaborating with the OP if currently active. The present heading "Removing trivia" pretty much says that removal is the option, but I envision more of a Reacting to Trivia Posts toolkit, including the practices GrampaSwood suggests, or maybe a section or annex on how to "fix" a contribution that is missing substantiation.
M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 18:49, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
What with all the new stuff found in the source code leak (as well as some of the reslist leak stuff), I think the stance on speculatory content in general needs to be changed a tad to not be so anti-speculation. I try to refrain from getting too speculatory in some of the cut/experimental content articles I've been creating based on things in the source code, but sometimes all you have to go on is a single string (see Throwable weapons#Snowball for example) so in cases like that I feel like some speculation on intended functionality wouldn't really hurt provided it were properly labelled as such. Something like "The following information is purely speculatory based on the existing evidence we have at this point in time", just as an example. 404UNF (talk) 01:44, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
Something found in the source is not speculation, but guessing why something is in the code is speculation, and unnecessary. We have places and style for Unused Content. Speculation is not the only constraint to apply here. Candidate content for Trivia and Unused Content still must also be notable and generally interesting. M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 12:53, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
I suppose this type of thing would be better suited for a more cut-content-focused wiki like TCRF instead of here. 404UNF (talk) 03:58, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia vs fandom

If wikipedia can be used, but so can fandom. Which one is preferred? It's been changed on the Tsar Platinum and Starboard Crusader twice now, but I don't know which one is better to use. I personally prefer wikipedia, as fandoms might not be kept up-to-date.
GrampaSwood (talk) 07:24, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

That and wikis maintained by and for a fandom have a tendency to start crawling up their own butt with fanfic at some point as the Silent Hill wiki's weird ass has proved on at least one occasion. Wikipedia is the one with citations and accuracy checked by people that care purely about those things for their own sake. If it were me I'd go with wikipedia unless the reference was so obscure it's not anywhere but fan wiki. Pretty much what I do anyway. -- Lagg Backpack Stickybomb Launcher.png 23:37, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
I would prefer to not have outbound links in the middle of the article besides to wikipedia (and even then there would ideally be some type of indicator), even if jojowiki.com is better than fandom, it should be treated like any other external link Naleksuh (talk) 07:06, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Cut content update note question

Regarding articles I've created for the Jungle Inferno weapon leaks such as Viewfinder; In the update notes where I've listed their removal from the game files, I've added a little "wink" of sorts with the addition of "Oops." to the end of the note "[Undocumented] Files for the Viewfinder were removed from the game". as the files for these leaked weapons were pushed accidentally by Valve with the moving of many weapon models to their new models\workshop directory in the update. There was no actual patch note from Valve about the removal of these files to my knowledge so it is an undocumented change and I feel a little wink like this doesn't hurt but it's been contested I guess you can say, so I'd like to get some consensus on this. 404UNF (talk) 07:29, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

  • Pictogram minus.png Remove Pretty much what Mikado said here. I also doubt that many readers will be able to understand the allusion, and as already stated it is non-encyclopedic commentary and adds no value whatsoever. User Wookipan Golden Strawberry.png Wookipan (talk | contribs) 20:47, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Pictogram minus.png Remove I'm usually pretty positive when it comes for suggestions and such, but I have to agree with the others here. I'm fine with a patch stating that the unused content was removed, however the "Oops" is not necessary, in a way, it ends up being an opinion from someone who has written on the article/item itself, however most readers doesn't associate individual users on articles, so most will probably think that it's an opinion by the Wiki editors as a whole, I think... User Gabrielwoj Signature Icon.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 1.pngUser Gabrielwoj Signature 2.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 3.png 20:59, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
Pictogram minus.png Remove Naleksuh (talk) 22:34, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

{{achievement name}} template?

The game has 520 achievements. How about an {{achievement name}} template to easily translate an achievement's name on a page instead of having to go through files and pages to find the localized names? - BrazilianNut (talk) 23:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Pictogram tick.png Done See Template:Achievement name for more info. — Tark lm(pt-br) 12:04, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Speed table changes

Can we please change the speed table to be a more normal template? For some reason it's very confusing and uses maths to calculate the speeds (At least, that's what it seems like). And uses imperial on the English page exclusively. This makes it very hard to add anything new or change it. Can this template just be changed to something like the {{Class health pack and overheal table}}? It's much easier to add something.
GrampaSwood (talk) 19:18, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Not completely unrelated, but, speaking of speeds... I made this topic on Talk:Medic#Medic.27s_speed. User Gabrielwoj Signature Icon.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 1.pngUser Gabrielwoj Signature 2.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 3.png 22:22, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Deleting Account

Don't know if this is the right place to ask, but is there a way to delete my account? Thanks. The preceding unsigned comment was added by [redacted]

Unfortunately we can't delete accounts, but I can rename it to something like "DeletedUser####". — Tark lm(pt-br) 22:31, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
That will be fine. The preceding unsigned comment was added by [redacted]
Pictogram tick.png Done. No need to reply. — Tark lm(pt-br) 22:48, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Someone did something

'| item-level =' shows now in infobox, instaed of only item type and level. Looks like it happens on every page: Bushwacka, Familiar Fez, Pool Party. User Denied signature.jpg Denied (Talk) 06:35, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Pictogram tick.png   Should be fixed. — Tark lm(pt-br) 06:50, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Double name of item type

Was it intentional? Now it looks like in game, rather than how it looks on SCM. In-game version looks like it wasn't something intentional, but rather a limitation after system with graded cosmetics was intruduced. User Denied signature.jpg Denied (Talk) 16:18, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, this was intentional. I've been working to make the backpack item template function more like it does in-game, as that's the primary source for all information regarding styling for the template. -- Boba 02:37, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Should the line break in the Backpack item template be removed?

The Backpack item template has had a weird line break between the item information and description for years now. This isn't accurate to the how the game does it. With that being said, should I remove the line break on the template? The goal of the template is to provide an infobox as similar as possible to the ones seen ingame, and this seems like a no-brainer. Give me your thoughts. -- Boba 02:41, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Pictogram tick.png Yes. — Tark lm(pt-br) 11:55, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Pictogram tick.png Yes
GrampaSwood (talk) 16:09, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Pictogram tick.png YesKillicon hhg.pngFiatSeicentoKillicon hhg.png 18:48, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Pictogram tick.png Yes yeah Goodjob (talk) 18:49, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Pictogram tick.png Yes most certainly Killicon flaming huntsman.png VasyaTheWizard (talk) • (contributions) 18:50, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Pictogram tick.png Yes definitely Zeklyn (talk) 20:23, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

119th Update Nav?

I'm in the middle of an update page/navbar renovation project to promote easy reading, and flow of gameplay-affecting things down to cosmetic stuff and ancillary media, but while I was doing that, I noticed the 119th Update doesn't have a navbar at all. And while the update itself did just add the employee badges, the update the day before added Crit-a-Cola, and Freight, and a bunch of other weapon changes not currently listed on that page; however, Crit-a-Cola and Freight are mentioned the "update progress" section on the 119th Update article. So as it stands, there are three options here, and I'm having a hard time deciding which one to pick. We can either:

1) Leave the update as the only major update that doesn't have a nav.
2) Create a nav with just the employee badges.
3) Create a nav with Freight and Crit-a-Cola in it too, and add the stuff from the April 28, 2010 Patch to the 119th Update page formally.

What are our collective thoughts on this? -ThatHatGuy (talk) 04:13, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

I like 2 and 3, but I can't decide on which I prefer. :B - BrazilianNut (talk) 04:15, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and made a basic nav for the 119th Update, after having made ones for the Hatless Update and Community Map Pack, so as to give everything navs that didn't have any. What remains to be discussed now is if we should also include the stuff the day before that update, if anyone would like to discuss that. -ThatHatGuy (talk) 12:24, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

The TFWIKI update.

Do you think the wiki needs some update? (ex: Dark mode, New editor, etc.) For me (my opinion.) the wiki looks obsolete.

MaxwellWagner (talk)

Then I suppose Wikipedia's design is obsolete. Danimations (talk) 00:53, 17 March 2021 (UTC) Danimations (talk)

Adding Unusual effect previews to cosmetic pages

I have an idea that could improve the wiki (And I'm willing to do all the work) GREATLY. My idea is to add previews of Unusual effects on cosmetic pages with the cosmetic in question. Now this would be kind of a chore to do with all the effects, but worry not! My idea is to ONLY include Unusual effects that the cosmetic has been confirmed to be opened with (For example if I want to include previews for the California Cap's effects, instead of making previews for every Unusual effect that exists, I would just go to https://backpack.tf/unusual/California%20Cap, check the effects that the item has been unboxed with then make previews for that item.) While you may think this would slow down making new pages, it would not! Instead of doing all the Unusual effects that exist right away, I would wait for about a month or two to THEN be able to make previews. (Of course, I won't always be 100% up-to-date in case an Unusual will be unboxed with a new effect/effect that it was never unboxed right away with, but I would at least try) This will require a lot of time to set up for all the existing Unusual cosmetics, true, but I'm up to the challenge. -Roebloz

Hi there,
First of all, please sign your comments using ~~~~.
This is an interesting idea, however, this is simply too much work. You might think you'll be up to the challenge, but I've personally said that with a lot of things and I can see in hindsight that I would not be able to. Loadout.tf serves this purpose already, and doing only existing unusual effects would be very inconsistent. If you were to do all the unusual effects, it would simply be too much work.
GrampaSwood (talk) 17:07, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I can relate to Swood. I wanted to do a few things that would take a lot of time and work, but at the end, I simply didn't (there were other reasons why, but nowadays, I'm happy I don't need to do what I was planning to do about a year ago). Players can inspect someone's else item in-game, to see details of the Unusual and other stuff. Yes, it is broken in-game (inspecting someone's item does nothing), but that's Valve's fault and not us. User Gabrielwoj Signature Icon.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 1.pngUser Gabrielwoj Signature 2.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 3.png 19:46, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Blurry images.

Some infobox images have been showing blurry, despite the image itself being fine. Derangement Garment is an example of one of them. I have seen other pages/infobox images with the same issue before. I use Vivaldi as my web browser, but pretty much any other infobox picture out there works fine (especially from old cosmetics), so I doubt it's something with my browser. User Gabrielwoj Signature Icon.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 1.pngUser Gabrielwoj Signature 2.png - User Gabrielwoj Signature 3.png 21:11, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

This should fix it. Just add | imagewidth = 261px.
GrampaSwood (talk) 21:14, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Link pages for notable persons/content artists

I have noted inconsistency, instability, and maintenance issues in links from the names of real persons who are particularly notable in the Team Fortress contexts. I think there is opportunity to both increase and standardize the information and experience the wiki provides users with respect to notable persons.

The proposal is to created standardized pages similar in format and content to the pages in the Category:Topics covered better by other wikis. The pages would provide both links to multiple other pages that better cover the person's biography and works in and out of Team Fortress and to pages about works they have contributed to Team Fortress.

Examples of what is proposed:

It is important to understand that notable persons/content artist pages must not be developed into biographies. This wiki’s policy is no biographies of real persons, living or otherwise.. These notable persons pages are intended only as augmented disambiguations, indexes, and redirects. Strict adherence to limited content and format policy (here) should be enforced.

It is open for discussion whether the existing Voice actors page should be replaced by these new notable persons pages or that the existing page should be expanded to have multiple person links and multiple links to their collective works (e.g., non-wiki art galleries).

"Wall of text" Policy text moved to User:Mikado282/Sandbox/Category:Notable persons 17:06, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Please comment, especially for any expansion of the list of Valve staff.

M I K A D O 282 ❄❄❄❄❄ ❄❄ ❄❄ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 00:32, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

P.S. I just wanted to see what it could look like done up into a table that could eventually be templated and translation switched:

I don't know. This may be neater being just one GD Big file, but it doesn't look as sharp as the single pages. A real problem with such a table would be getting the text to look good at various zoom.

M I K A D O 282 ❄❄❄❄❄ ❄❄ ❄❄ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 04:27, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Pictogram plus.png Support. I really like this idea. — Tark lm(pt-br) 01:07, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Pictogram plus.png Support Killicon flaming huntsman.png VasyaTheWizard (talk) • (contributions) 06:20, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Pictogram plus.png Support Sure. Goodjob (talk) 12:08, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Pictogram plus.png Support Fine proposal and well-thought-out, would indeed serve well as an index for those in need of a quick reference. I do find the table expansion more ideal for replacing the Voice actors page since it could just be redirected, however, that would defeat the purpose of having their own individual page. Of course, the Voice actors page could simply be made into a disambiguation and then provide links to each VA from there, and the same goes for notable persons. User Wookipan Golden Strawberry.png Wookipan (talk | contribs) 21:54, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Wait, Wok, individual pages or one GD Big table? Each Comic page links to the creative person, each individual page would link to the category, each category list everyone in the category. Voice actors and Artists could redirect to the automatically alphabetized category or, yes, they could be manually maintained list of links to the individual pages. M I K A D O 282 ❄❄❄❄❄ ❄❄ ❄❄ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 01:40, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
The former - it was merely a suggestion to the Voice actors page replacement if we were to go with the table idea instead, as you did bring it up. But yes, I suppose the table would be a bit clumsy in the end due to all the info and links each cell would need to contain.
Not entirely sure what you mean by: "..each individual page would link to the category" - I'm assuming you mean having each page categorized under Category:Notable persons and then have both Voice actors and Artists redirect to said category? Never seen a redirect to a category before but it would indeed make maintenance easier. User Wookipan Golden Strawberry.png Wookipan (talk | contribs) 21:29, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
OK, launching Category:Notable persons. M I K A D O 282 ❄❄❄❄❄ ❄❄ ❄❄ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 02:34, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Suggestion: Redundant Categories Bot

I'm not sure how hard or easy it'd be to do this, but I think there should be a bot that trawls the wiki for categories, files, and pages that are part of both a category and a sub-category, then removes them from the redundant super-categories. For example, an image of the Spy doesn't need to be in both [[Category:Images]] and [[Category:Spy images]], because "Spy images" are categorized as "Images" -- it already effectively is an "Image" by virtue of being a "Spy image." So the bot would remove the [[Category:Images]] markup from the page. Kestrelguy (talk) 22:08, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Pictogram tick.png Yes. Solid idea. I'd like to work on it. — Tark lm(pt-br) 00:02, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Zombies

The wiki main page now shows the zombie versions of the mercs. Error? Mikere (talk) 09:36, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

It's full moon. Please use the talk page for the main page next time.
GrampaSwood (talk) 09:42, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

adding a Rewards item section

This section would cover items like the Professor Speks, or Mann Co. Cap. Items that are not unlocked through achievements, but rather though tasks that a player would happen to do. By doing this it would not only give newer players another reason to play, (completing tasks in exchange for a reward), but it would also let older player who might not know about certain things a chance to learn about something new. (not to mention the fact that to get the Professor Speks, you need to be upgrading your account to premium and you will have to be recommended by a friend, the player might hear about this and want to get the hat themselves, then telling THEIR friends about TF2, making more and more people know about TF2).

I feel like this could be a good addition, and I already wrote some of the hats down! (even though I accidentally did it on the main page lol).

Regards, Ears4you107 (talk) 20:41, 29 January 2021 (UTC)Ears4you107

These are already listed on the promotional items page, don't really see a need for a separate page unless there are a significant amount of items.
GrampaSwood (talk) 23:02, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Topics to get you a wiki cap?

What do you do that gets a high moderator to notice your profile and start a pole on whether or not a user can get a wiki cap? Ears4you107 (talk) 17:48, 12 March 2021 (UTC)Ears4you107

See this page for more information.
GrampaSwood (talk) 17:54, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Subclasses in the community strategy pages?

I think some "subclasses" deviate a lot from the standard style of play (E.g. Ninjaneer) and have many different combinations of weapons that they can't be put inside of the weapon combo section without an unreasonably long paragraph next to it. Something similar perhaps to Demoknight?
GrampaSwood (talk) 16:34, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

I think that this should happen, there are definitely certain subclasses such as: the "Ninjaneer", or the Trolldier..., all of these subclasses deviate significantly from there original class, so giving them they're own sunsection in the community strategy for them is justifiable?Lolimsogreat21 (talk) 16:51, 20 March 2021 (UTC)Lolimsogreat21
Pictogram plus.png Support I also like this idea. Kestrelguy (talk) 22:17, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Do we do anything for April Fools?

Like maybe changing all the text to the comic sans font and changing the logo to a horribly made recreation in ms paint? Danimations (talk) 18:51, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

We did that back in 2019, actually. See TFW:April Fools' Day/2019/Main Page. You may take a look at User:GrampaSwood/AprilFools2021 for further details on our latest preparations. We do have some behind-the-scenes changes in the works, but that won't be revealed to the public until release. User Wookipan Golden Strawberry.png Wookipan (talk | contribs) 19:12, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

That's even better then I expected it to be. Danimations (talk) 20:00, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

KoTH Slaughter?

Custom maps are a pretty tricky topic to cover, but would Slaughter be a good candidate for a page? After all, it's what Laughter is based on and is favorable among players in Creators.tf. ShadowMan44 (talk) 00:40, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Sure, if its Halloween map was already added in my opinion · Ashe (talk) 02:59, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Weapons' Shot Type and Damage Type

In the recent zh-hans project, we solved multiple translation problems and improved translation accuracy of the zh-hans side of TF Wiki. A pretty big problem was found in this project by User_talk:ApertureLab and can not be solved only through that project, I reworded and rearranged them in English and put it here for discussion:

  • All kind of Flame Throwers' Shot Type is currently "Particle", but the Projectiles page have a "Flames" sections. Flame Throwers indeed throws "particles" but technically they are just "Projectiles". The Shot Type of all Flame Throwers should be changed to "Projectiles".
  • Short Circuit's Primary Fire Shot Type is listed "Area of Effect", which is false, it is actually "Hitscan" but with limited range.
  • Short Circuit's Secondary Fire Damage type is "Projectiles", which is false. "Projectiles" is not Damage Type, it is Short Circuit's Shot Type. And this leads to a bigger problem: Short Circuit is a dual Shot Type weapon, it is both "Projectiles" and "Area of Effect". Is there anything look alike? Flames from Flame Throwers? Rockets from Rocket Launcher? Furthermore, in the Projectiles page there is a "List of projectiles"; The Short Circuit's Secondary Fire electricity orb is not included in the list, and it should be.
  • Along with the above questions, we do not have a page that talks about the whole thing of "Area of Effect". The Mad Milk, Gas Passer and Jarate all has a "Area of Effect" Effect. The baubles from Wrap Assassin can also deal "Area of Effect" damage. And heck, What about the Compression blast? It is also a kind of "Area of Effect" but with limited angles. Also the explosion of Rockets from Rocket Launchers that can deal "Area of Effect" splash damage. Maybe some taunts can deal "Area of Effect" damage like Gas Blast. We don't have a "Area of Effect" page that talks about their affect range or "How big exactly is the area of 'Area of Effect'?", their effects or "Is there any difference about the Rocket explosion and Sticky explosion?", and things like effect fall-off factors of different "Area of Effect", etc.

I have a extra question:

  • Flying Guillotine have a "Untyped" Damage Type. What is it exactly? Isn't it like Sandman's baseball that cause 0 damage and just gives effects? Why the obvious ranged baseball is listed in "Ranged or Melee damage?" as "Melee" damage?

These are some serious problems that can take significant amount of times to fix and affects lots of the weapons pages. For reference, I put a list of all Shot Types and Damage Types currently used in the TF Wiki here:

Shot Types Example Page
Projectile Rocket Launcher
Hitscan Shotgun
Melee Bat
Impact Thermal Thruster
Untyped Flying Guillotine
Area of effect Huo-Long Heater
Particle Flame Thrower


Damage Types Example Page
Bullet Shotgun
Explosive Rocket Launcher
Fire Flame Thrower
Dual-type (fire and bullet) Flare Gun
Projectile Short Circuit
Falling Thermal Thruster



AlexT 17:33, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Add Falling to the Damage Types list, fix typos. AlexT 02:44, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

"Helpful overview" not fitting with the wiki

I've seen a good addition to the map articles: the helpful overviews. However, they look confusing and doesn't fit with the Wiki style in my opinion. So, i'm proposing using this template from comp.tf to the overviews, with some additions (color of the marker for specific locations, etc). Also, this will require some changes on these images (removing lines and replacing them with coloured areas only for bases and etc). This would need a change in the common.css page.
This is an example of how it would look like · Ashe (talk) 02:45, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Dereko strongly support your idea, Ashe. The template would provide a better overview, also make it easier to apply changes.
The current way we present is not flexible at all (imagine one should remake and reupload an overview image only to make changes for one location).User Dereko Name.png 13:24, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Pictogram plus.png Support Solid idea! I'll set some time aside and work on it sometime next month if this is what we're going with. I'll probably make some improvements to the visuals as well. Also, on a little side note, I'd advise you to link large images instead of embedding them into the page as it take up quite a lot of space and can be somewhat distracting. I'd suggest merging the two images together and link them as one. User Wookipan Golden Strawberry.png Wookipan (talk | contribs) 19:30, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Pictogram minus.png Oppose Come one man...I've spent the whole previous week just studying the layout of the maps, drawing the lines and making them as accurate as they could be and then uploading the images, categorizing them and finnaly inserting them into the article they were supposed to be in (And also adding all the neccesary details which come with the image such as that peice of text next to the image which explains everything on the overview) Who now has the time to go back to those 70+ maps I just finished with and do the whole process again!? Look, I can understand that the overviews aren't...perfect. They look a bit...janky, but still, give them a try atleast and see how they work out insted of immidiently removing them after they're fresh out of my gallery. I think that they are quit fine, they show everything that needs to be shown, spawn locations and how they change, objectives, key locations and etc, and they are quit consistent too! Spawns are always marked in diagonal lines correlating to the teams colour, objectives are marked in coulurful circles and key locations are encirceled in white or red (depending on the background) doted lines which are marked by a number. This means that you can quickly find what your looking for. Looking for the location of the objective? Simply search for the coulered circles on the map. Want to know the position of each teams spawn and how they change? Red/Blue diagonal lines are all you need to keep an eye out and ignore the rest.Now, I might be a bit biased considering that these helpful overviews are my creations but still, I don't see anything seriously flawed about them. They are simple to understand and also simple to update. If someone wants to add another location to the map article, all they have to do would be to take the map overview with lines of that map, go to the ms paint with it, and add another series of white/red doted lines with a big number.Lolimsogreat21 (talk) 22:22, 12 April 2021 (UTC)Lolimsogreat21
Dereko appreciates your good work, Lolimsogreat. But Dereko insists the flexibility is not so satisfactory. An easy way of editing shouldn't include off-site work, like editing and reuploading the image. Also, if there are other people who are willing to cooperate with you on this project, the style, line, colour combination of his/her image may be different with yours, which is not helpful to maintain the consistency between map pages.User Dereko Name.png 09:41, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for appreciation, I do admit that these overviews aren't the most flexible ones in the world, and that having to "do offsite" work isn't very convenient. But one advantage that my types of Helpful overviews would have over the ones Ashe demonstrated would be reader friendliness. Lets take a look at on of my Helpful overviews, the Upward Helpful overview to be specific: Upward overview with lines.png (Click on the small image to enlarge it.) As you can see, the C hut on Upward (or how Uncle Dane calls it: the shithouse) is marked by the number 16, now this is isn't shown here but on the actual Upward page there is a small line of text near the image which explains all the numbers, circles etc... Now, if a reader were to want to search for the C hut (shithouse) all he would have to would be to take a look at that line of text which is displayed next to the image, see under which number is the C hut listed (number 16 in this case), and then take a quick glance at the Upward overview itself and easily spot the number 16 standing out in its own encirciled area. Now, lets see how would Ashe's Helpful overview work out, In her overview, locations aren't marked by numbers which are encirceled by markers, but by "waypoints" which you have to hover over or click in order to display the name of the location they sit upon. Now, i do admit that marking the locations with waypoints makes it look a lot more "cleaner" and professional then using markers to mark the area in a rather crude and janky way I did it, but here is the problem with Ashes overview: If the Reader wants to see where is the position of an area he, mind you, has no idea about, he would have to basically click on every single waypoint marker until he finds where the area he is searching for is. If the reader is lucky, the first marker he clicks on will display the area he is looking for, in this case, the C hut of Upward, however, if he is unlucky, he will need to go throughout the entire map, relentlessly clicking on every single marker until he finally finds that one marker which displays the area he is looking for...after wasting how much time exactly? Unlike in my overview where the reader simply needs to find a number which I always make sure to make as outstanding against the background as I can, in the Ashes overview, the Reader is forced to play a game of "treasure hunt" just so that he can find whatever he is looking for. Now I might be just exaggerating this problem, maybe the Reader being forced to put a bit more effort into finding what he desires isn't that big of a deal and is worth sacrificing "reader friendliness" for more flexibility but im still sure that the Ashes overview will lead to at least some users being frustrated or annoyed at having to torture there mouse 1 button and the finger which rest on it. This isn't too bad considering what we are getting in return with Ashe's overview (more flexibility and consequently more consistency) but the problems don't stop here. Another problem is that the Ashe's overview has no borders which mark the limits of the area, there's just a waypoint thus leaving the reader to decide where a location begins and where it ends, this can lead to a lot more serious issue of confusing the Reader who, mind you is using this overview in the first place because he doesn't know anything about that specific map and trusts the Helpful overview to help him and not confuse him even further. The way to fix this issue would be to add borders, but if you add borders to the Ashe's overview, do our overviews become even that much different? Look, im not saying that my overview is better, I can clearly see its problems, but neither is the overview made by Ashe any more perfect then mine. Now, we will have to decide, what to sacrfifice: Reader friendliness or Editor friendliness... The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lolimsogreat21 (talk) • (contribs)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Pictogram info.png Info To note it on here as well, comp.tf staff has previously given us permission to use this template and an example can be found on User:TidB/Map locations though the CSS for it isn't yet activated. Also, while colored markers could be a good idea for some cases, we could also just use the {{tabs}} template to put all those markers on different pages. An example can be found on User:TidB/Community_strategy#Callouts (again, you need the custom CSS from the template page to display it at the moment) { TidB | t | c } 06:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Alright, i wouldn't like to scrap entirely the work of Lolimsogreat, so i'm proposing this overview, that is a merge between the editor and the reader friendliness. It will require a bit more of work to implement. Now, for the border areas (that i think is a good idea), with more complex implement (maybe), this should happen. It should overlap the image of the overview with the overview with lines · Ashe (talk) 20:51, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
@Lolimsogreat21 I can perfectly understand why this is upsetting to you, but please do not see this as an attempt to discard the work you've been doing so far — your contributions are appreciated and this has merely been brought to our attention after so long. Do note that this idea has been proposed before (as stated by TidB above) and was simply cast aside, until now. Now, I'll openly admit, that map overviews as well as competitive guides aren't exactly my area of expertise. However, I do see your points in regards to easier readability, but even so, some of these issues can be fixed or worked around. For instance, a fix for the 'treasure hunt game' as you described it as could be something as simple as adding a parameter which sets a number with the marker along with a color such as black/white for specific scenarios. We won't be able to add borders around specific areas as that would be too complex (circles would be possible, however) though one could argue that such markings be necessary in the first place. Being met with an image of all these markings, lines and whatnot could be overwhelming to some readers, and even somewhat 'intimidating', I guess you could say. Knowing the exact zones and limitations of an area is irrelevant; we should really just be focusing on displaying the locations of certain areas with most relevance, for the sake of simplicity. What Ashe just proposed is pretty much what I had in mind: It's simplistic and clean yet still somewhat retain the current style format. User Wookipan Golden Strawberry.png Wookipan (talk | contribs) 21:28, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Alright guys, you managed to get me on board with this idea. To be honest Ashe, I was sceptical of you finding the solution to the two previously mentioned problem i brought up, but you managed to did it. What you did is really good, not only does it solve the problem of borders but it also does a good job of making a compromise between reader friendliness and editor friendliness. And as hard as it is to admit, your work looks a lot better then my ms paint sposored map overviews. Only question now would be: How do you plan to implement this "interactive map overvies" in the Tf2 Wiki and how can i help with scrapping my... well, outdated work?Lolimsogreat21 (talk) 21:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)Lolimsogreat21
How should we make these new helpful overviews? - Danimations (talk) 21:54, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Well Dan, we two better get to learning on how to do what Ashe did because it seems to me that Microsoft Paint ain't gona cut it this time around :D Lolimsogreat21 (talk) 22:58, 13 April 2021 (UTC)Lolimsogreat21
Dan attempting to say "Ok" - Danimations (talk) 23:06, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
@Lolimsogreat21 The images will be deleted once they have been replaced. If you'd like, I can move them to your user space instead. You guys don't need to worry about the implementation process as I'll be taking care of that part since the styling need to be inserted into the wiki's global CSS, which only administrators can do. I'll start working on it by the end of the month or sometime next month and then report back once it's ready for use. User Wookipan Golden Strawberry.png Wookipan (talk | contribs) 20:00, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
(In Demoman voice) Ay, thanks! hahaha :D. Anyway, thanks Wookipan for helping us by finding the way to insert these "Images" into the Wiki. Also, thanks for offering me help in moving my "old" overviews to my user space but there's no need, I don't want them now that i realize how crappy they truly are. Also, no haste, you don't need to get the implementation process ready so fast, I first have to teach myself how to actually make map overviews the way Ashe did them, and then replace every single map overview with the new one which will take two months at least, (This is assuming that Ashe doesn't help me which would be weird since she kick started this New Helpful overview project by herself.) But thanks for the help and having understanding, I do admit that I aren't proud of my first discussion edit on this section, it just sounds like I was to bitter for there being a possibility that my work could be replaced by something else which turns out to be way better. Anyway, good night.Lolimsogreat21 (talk) 21:02, 14 April 2021 (UTC)Lolimsogreat21

Number format for templates

I've seen a problem with number format in the templates, the number needs to be changed for every language the template needs and in their correct local format, i.e. the decimal separator (e.g. "1.5" is 1.5 in english, and "1,5" in spanish). I've tried to create a template but i think is kinda complex for my understanding, so i looked in internet and there's a extension for mediawiki. Wit this, it will be more editor-friendly, mainly for new editors · Ashe (talk) 03:33, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Use {{Dec}}. — Tark lm(pt-br) 05:10, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Improving pages that haven't been edited for years

I have seen many Items descriptions that are out of date (too many to say)

Reasoning

Like stat changes not added to the description and lack of detail and it will be up to everyone to really try to improve the quality of the descriptions of Items and improve the website

Furthermore a few subjects have been neglected and unedited for years and I would like to fix that

Request

So I would like to request to help improve the quality of page descriptions

Final Message

Thank you

Hoping the best for the longevity of the wiki,

CodingIsFun