Difference between revisions of "Team Fortress Wiki talk:Policies/Community content notability guidelines"

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:: [[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><font color="db9c1f">''' M I K A D O 282 '''</font></span><span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="00ff00"> <small>⊙</small>⊙⊙⊙⊙<small>⊙ ⊙⊙  ⊙⊙</small></font></span>]] ([[User_talk:Mikado282|'''''talk''''']]) ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) 21:15, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 
:: [[User:Mikado282|<span style="font-family: Impact"><font color="db9c1f">''' M I K A D O 282 '''</font></span><span style="font-family: Arial "><font color="00ff00"> <small>⊙</small>⊙⊙⊙⊙<small>⊙ ⊙⊙  ⊙⊙</small></font></span>]] ([[User_talk:Mikado282|'''''talk''''']]) ([[User:Mikado282/Help Wanted!|'''''Help Wanted!''''']]) 21:15, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 
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::: I don't think moving something to userspace is a "solution" for articles that art not notable -- while userspace can be used to draft stuff, the tf2 wiki is not a web host. [[User:Naleksuh|Naleksuh]] ([[User talk:Naleksuh|talk]]) 19:28, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
  
 
== Glossary: Official versus Unreleased content, et al ==
 
== Glossary: Official versus Unreleased content, et al ==

Revision as of 19:28, 19 August 2020

Extension of the Mod notability section to the broader Community content notability concept

See User:Mikado282/Sandbox/Community content notability guidelines

Community content has been a foundation of the Team Fortress franchise. The Team Fortress concept was initially created as a community mod to Quake. Team Fortress 2 was developed with an intention to foster the operation of Community servers and the Community development of mods and maps, groups and event. Presently about a third of Team Fortress 2 participation is on Community servers. The majority of new content for Team Fortress 2 is Community developed. If this wiki is to be most useful and relevant, it should continue to give some service to Community content.

OK, the elephant in the room; what do I, a relative non-participant in Community events or servers have to contribute to the subject of Community content? Please provide the balance of your perspectives to my suggestions where I may be seen as overly biased to including Potato events and maps (there, it’s said). On the other hand, IIUC, most of the new Community content pages come from the Potato events, and at this time, participation on Valve MvM and Potato MvM maps are roughly at the same level.

At present, there is compliant of quality, incompleteness, and style deviation of a certain range of Community content pages. But really, the answer to those issues is no different than for the same problems of quality, incompleteness, and style deviation in Valve content pages when they happen; edit it. The real question is whether each Community content page (new or legacy, finished or stub, opus or shlock), like each Valve-content page, actually belongs as a unique page on the wiki main space, and that, IMO, is the question of notability.

My observation is that the existing "Mod notability" section has much of the wording appropriate to extend to Custom maps, and potentially to Community events. I have started a sandbox for such an extension here. The links to Community content pages and categories is intended to illustrate present coverage of Community content. The criteria I added are those that seem to also matter on notability, particularly for events.

Alternatively, instead of extending the Mod notability section to Community content notability, you may suggest additional sections specific to Community maps and Community pages.

I am not set on any particular criteria, but some expansion seems called for if we are to look at the broader Community content.

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 22:31, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Should Community notability take into account the relative popularity of the official content the Community is expanding. Is it more notable when a mod draws thousands to a less popular game mode than than a mod that draws the same thousands to a very popular game mode.

I am not saying this isn't a sticky wicket.

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 12:55, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I added suggested replacement Custom content tags to the Policy talk page. I may take some time to make the banners, or you may.

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 01:50, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

1.Since some community contents with low notability could be more famous in the future, should we move them to a user sub page like what we did for Creators.tf?
2.For the tags, most community content may never be released officially, while they are "released" on some servers or mods, so Dereko would prefer "unofficially released Community content".
3.For notability discussion in the future, I believe we need an independent discussion page which would make the discssions gather together and make it easy to refer to, and even if the community content page is deleted, the results of the discussion can be publicly preserved.

User Dereko Name.png 05:32, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

1.Since some community contents with low notability could be more famous in the future, should we move them to a user sub page like what we did for Creators.tf? -- Dereko
Unfortunately, I don't know what was done for Creators.tf. We already have a policy for use of Sandbox for drafts of potential articles. The main space articles (e.g., Operation Canteen Crasher) should not link to user space pages. If it is notable, the article should only be in user sandbox during drafting (if then))
2.For the tags, most community content may never be released officially, while they are "released" on some servers or mods, so Dereko would prefer "unofficially released Community content". -- Dereko
FWIW, I come from a background were release has specific meaning. As I view it, Value patches are controlled releases, but I don't assume that even with Potato that we have an anything that might be considered a controlled release. One of our Community tags has a statement that the content may have errors, omissions, or out-of-date information. I think any Community content tag should have that statement, since we have no particular assurance of configuration control -- we can say Teien has been in 5 Community events, but I wouldn't try to say that the same version or which different version of Teien was used in each event. I would say that Teien is notable, but which version of Teien used in each event is less notable (Achievement Idle and its derivatives are notable, but the change histories of all of its variants are not).
3.For notability discussion in the future, I believe we need an independent discussion page which would make the discssions gather together and make it easy to refer to, and even if the community content page is deleted, the results of the discussion can be publicly preserved. -- Dereko
OK, I see the weakness in that part of my proposal. It seemed to me that a page's Notability discussion could be recorded on its Talk page, but yes, where do we record it when it is not notable (where any later editor might find it, too). WP has a very involved process for DYK; every WP DYK entry has a logged record of the results of dozens of man-hours of review. We would want to make this a very light process, and for events, a blanket assessment for the event, not a separate discussion for every map in the event.
M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 21:15, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
I don't think moving something to userspace is a "solution" for articles that art not notable -- while userspace can be used to draft stuff, the tf2 wiki is not a web host. Naleksuh (talk) 19:28, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Glossary: Official versus Unreleased content, et al

Proposed definitions relevant to the above conversations (because "Community" itself is too broad to be practical for specific use).

Official: Generally, "official", "Valve", or "released" content refers to content that Valve Patched into the game or published on its copyrighted Internet sources (e.g., blog, comics, news).

Unofficial: Generally, "unofficial", "custom", "mod", or "unreleased" content in contrast refers to content that was developed outside of Valve, and is used on non-Valve servers, and has not been Patched into the game.

Community: "Community" has a couple conflicting meanings in this conversation: Maps and cosmetics that Valve has patched into the game but were developed in the Community are called Community content by Valve. But, But "Community" also means things made outside of Valve. And, servers not nominally operated by Valve are called "Community servers" by Valve. (On the Halloween ConTracker, Valve makes the distinction between "official_maps" and "Community_maps", but all of the maps on the ConTracker are "official" and "patched".

Looking through this again, now, maybe this thread should be renamed "Custom content notability guidelines" or "Unofficial content notability guidelines".

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 21:50, 9 August 2020 (UTC)


Community charity events

OK, I have been wondering about notability for the Community charity event aspects of this, in particular.

A couple of factors:

1) I would think there is a natural tendency to want to help with charities, to be useful, in a helpful sense. So, would Community event featuring a charity establish notability? But it is probably not enough for the event to claim it is a charity, there would need to be some vetting of some form.

2) It occurs to me that a Community entity hosting a charity using Valve's TF2 IP may require some Valve approval. I don't know personally, I would have to ask someone who actually ran one. Doesn't running a TF2 IP when promoting a charity involve some Valve intellectual property rights and corporate image control, but, also tax law? In short, if Valve openly acknowledges a charity that is using Valve IP integrated with online money exchange, that establishes a degree of legitimacy (e.g., not wire fraud) -- not just some guy saying "send me money for a fund raiser".

Sorry so disjoint; but, does Valve promotion of a Community fundraiser make the event notable enough to mention on TFwiki, with helpful information in an article, before the actual event?

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 01:52, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

1. We can always just add a link to popular/notable charities (E.g. once highlighted on the blog/famous ones such as hugs.tf and Tip of the Hats) to the main page if we wanna help out.
2. It does not.
GrampaSwood (talk) 19:14, 19 August 2020 (UTC)