Talk:Environmental death

Payload cart death

It would be new section all together, but I have seen a couple maps, where the payload, (before the stage starts) slides down a hill and standing in its wake causes death. Should we bother mentioning it. If so, does anyone know the map I'm talking about? I know the 3rd stage is all uphill, and instead of an explosion it's a giant sub-woofer that goes off. Lalaguy 23:17, 4 November 2011 (PDT)

I think it's pl_Promotion, but as it's not an official map it probably won't be added. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 05:46, 5 November 2011 (PDT)

Thanks, just wanted to clarify. Lalaguy 13:19, 5 November 2011 (PDT)

Ubercharges and environmental deaths

Is it worth mentioning on this page which of these deaths can kill ÜberCharged players? --Itsacon 04:41, 6 April 2012 (PDT)

Mechanics behind causing environmental deaths

I was just wondering what the mechanics were behind causing someone to have an environmental death. Specifically, I tried airblasting someone into lava and it just counted as them dying by themselves. Does it have to be within a specific time-limit of them leaving the ground? Bojjob 19:31, 9 January 2014 (PST)

Helltower lava

Should the lava from hell and the cliff in Helltower be considered it's own environmental death, or would it be added to one of the existing deaths? ClockworkSpirit2343 07:19, 1 April 2014‎ (PST)

I dont think NPC's should be here.

As technically they arent the " enviroment" ScottishDrunkard (talk) 15:12, 27 December 2014 (PST)

The environmental death is defined as "A death caused by a map element", so death from NPC should be included in this article because NPCs are "a map element".  –  Kii (talk) 15:34, 27 December 2014 (PST)

Hmm...good thinkng. EDIT: Forgot to sign. ScottishDrunkard (talk) 07:44, 28 December 2014 (PST)

— The preceding unsigned comment was added by ScottishDrunkard (talk) • (contribs)

MvM mission failure explosion and ghost fort wheel of misfortune

There is no section about the bomb explosion that occurs when the players fail to defend the hatch. There is also no mention of the spells on the wheel of misfortune, although they may not be considered environmental hazards due to being tied to capturing the point. Chandlerj333 (talk) 20:28, 22 February 2015 (PST)

Payload description directs to pitfall; appropriate maps aren't listed

In the description of the payload explosion deaths, it notes that some payload maps can cause a pit to form once the final point is capped. However, the pitfall deaths don't list these maps. Should they be added, or should it stay as is?

They could be designated like this:

• Badwater (Once final point is captured)

Chandlerj333 (talk) 22:02, 9 May 2015 (PDT)

Lava, Styx, and Bomb Pits

I am wanting to write up the entries for Lava and the underworld waters. But I need some feedback. For clarity, I have separated the environments. Mikado282 (talk) 17:01, 22 June 2017 (PDT)

Lava

Lava will be pretty straight forward. On my main project, I have run out of ways to get around there being no section on Lava. However, there are some Lava-specific game mechanics I need to verify before I can really do this right. Mikado282 (talk) 17:01, 22 June 2017 (PDT)

 Done Mikado282 (talk) 08:56, 8 July 2017 (PDT)

Styx

Styx is my present placeholder for the name of the environmental hazard type of the underworld waters in Eyeaduct and Ghost Fort. I want some thing clear, short, and distinct; toxic water, death water, and instant death water don't really do it for me. I like Styx a lot, certainly the present waters of the underworlds are reference to River Styx; but, what if the instant death water is used in a non-underworld, unhaunted level? Comments and suggestions are welcome. I need a name for it. Mikado282 (talk) 17:01, 22 June 2017 (PDT)

Treating underworld water is more complicated. There are multiple underworlds, some with the water in question, some without; but the legacy articles still refer to a single underworld under Eyeaduct. I am still thinking about how to best do this; maybe revise this article to separate the water and "underworld" health drain as distinct environmental hazards and list the maps that have them (rather than letting the original map combinations drive the section) Mikado282 (talk) 08:56, 8 July 2017 (PDT)

 Done I settled for "Underworld waters" (see Discussion here). It is still awkward to my taste but is an acceptable compromise. Mikado282 (talk) 19:55, 5 September 2017 (PDT)

Bomb Pit

Chandlerj333's question has me thinking. Yes, the "Bomb Pit" (cueing from the MVM term, Bomb Holes) seems like a pitfall, but I want to make sure of the mechanics. Even if the only difference is that the hole is uncovered when captured, I think it could be handled at least as a distinct subclass of pitfall. Moreover, technically, the cart itself is an Environmental Death hazard on certain maps. I will continue to look into this; suggestions are welcome. Mikado282 (talk) 17:01, 22 June 2017 (PDT)

 Done for now, this was a quick fix; covered by revising the introduction. Mikado282 (talk) 08:56, 8 July 2017 (PDT)

Sept. 5, 2017

Addition of Health drain, Underworld waters, and Shake, and several updates and cleanups.

The article is now effectively updated to support competition of Brimstone (map), et al.. Another objective is to depreciate the present Underworld and Loot Island sections as they are too cumbersome and inconsistent to update to the newer maps. The Underworld and Loot Island are out-of-date and are now fully depreciated by the recent edits and will be removed. Merasmus, MONOCULUS, and Skeletons could remain, but only because their damage is classified as environmental. The Boss/Event specific content is largely replaced by these recent edits and may be greatly reduced.

Pumpkin bombs are map/theme-specific, not event-specific, as they do not need an event to be active. This should be moved to the preceding section.

In general, map mechanics are unnecessary and have been removed in places.

Boss mechanics are irrelevant to this article and should be removed in a near future edit with a review of coverage of the removed material by the appropriate articles (e.g., Eyeaduct and Ghost Fort). Mikado282 (talk) 19:58, 5 September 2017 (PDT)

Issues with Bosses/Event-specific Hazards

I find this section to be outdated, inaccurate, and outmoded, one of the last holdouts perpetuating early Community suppositions about the nature of the Underworlds.

1) Pumpkin bombs, Alien Walkers, and Explosive Barrels, while event-themed and appearing primarily on maps Valve hosts only in Events, are not event-specific. These hazards are active anytime the maps are hosted, requiring no event setting to activate. The Alien Walkers are on Probed and 2Fort Invasion that are now hosted year round. All other event-themed hazards have already been included in the other sections, and these should be moved there.

2) The Underworld (specifically Eyeaduct) and Loot Island sections come from a time when these were the only Underworlds and are not specifically Hazards. Hazards of the various Underworlds are all completely covered in their own sections.

3) The Bosses are also event-themed. While they are fairly considered to be map hazards, they are fully covered in their own pages, and their sections here can be sharply diminished.

M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (To Do) 16:48, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Should "Ghost" be added here?

On the page of Ghost, it's said that Ghosts are NPCs and an environmental hazard. Though it has been linked to this page, here is nothing about Ghosts.

08:32, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Sure. Just a link to the main, doesn't even need to mention Zephaniah, since the main does that. M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (Help Wanted!) 20:52, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

"Event-specific"

All of the Pumpkin Bomb reskins should be grouped (as they are is fine); but, Alien Walker's are not (now) Event-specific. Sure, they once were, and sure everything else under the Bosses/Event-specific Hazards section is associated with Halloween Events, but they all can be found activated all year round. Maybe nothing needs to be done, but the Pumpkin Bomb reskins could be made subheadings under "Bomb", and the monsters could be put under "Monsters". M I K A D O 282 🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃 🎃🎃 🎃🎃 (talk) (Help Wanted!) 21:04, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Removing the notes of where certain hazards are

I believe this kind of information is a bit too specific, really belonging only in the map articles, and doesn't need to be here. Removing it would make updating the article's translations easier, possibly with the creation of a template similar to {{Maps list}}. - BrazilianNut (talk) 02:40, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

 Support, not sure it's necessary for something like Crushing to note all the places it appears.
| s | GrampaSwood (talk) 11:20, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Cleanup

I think this page should see a major overhaul. Currently this page lists every hazard that looks different. I believe that this clutters up the page with hazards that function identically but simply look different. I propose we overhaul the page into the same 4 sections, but the subsections would contain broader hazards. For example, rather than having "Crocodiles", "Sharks", and "Gators" in separate sections they would simply be under something such as "Animal death". This also prevents the page from eventually becoming too big to solve this problem more reasonably. I would be doing this myself, then pass it for approval.
| s | GrampaSwood (talk) (contribs) 21:49, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

  Support.

Additionally, I now agree with what you and Tiagoquix said in my topic in the Wiki's Discussions about articles for individual hazards. I think turning this page into a "List of" one and moving the more detailed information to individual articles would be the ideal. - BrazilianNut (talk) 22:06, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

      Mixed support, as I would probably end up with a somewhat different solution if I were to clean it up, but I don't have the time that some others might.

• My thought is that this page is already a list of environmental hazards.
• "the same 4 sections" In part, will support if you mean "Instant death hazards", "Non-instant death hazards", "Non-injurous hazards", "Bosses". Maybe, they could have better titles, but these are the basic groups that any hazards list will need.
• It is easy to see there is a need for a major overhaul.
  • I did some overhaul, but stopping to get back to family life does not mean there isn't more I want to change.
• On reflection, all of the bomb reskins could be moved into a Bombs page.
  • I almost merged all of the Pumpkin Bombs reskins, until I realized that most are not straight reskins, but have at least one mechanic difference from the original Pumpkin Bombs.
  • Pumpkin bombs already has most of the reskin images, but none of the unique mechanics for each of the reskins.

• What is useful here? Anything that can be presented in a more useful format than in separate articles, even it is on main pages in a different format?
  • List of maps that have each effect? I think so, even if there is a separate article. Maybe not, as long as every page has a bulleted list of maps with the effect.
  • Image of the effects? Maybe not, if there is a main article.
  • Kill Icons? Maybe. I mean, Any main artile article would have the same kill icons.
  • Associated achievements? The present format is not useful, as there is no traceabilty between the hazzards and achievements.
• I almost thought that there was no point for the Bosses section, until today. I realised one of the points for the page is listing the kill icons, and Merasmus has a pile of them. Buuuut, those kill icons are all on Merasmus' page, too.

I think I would oppose moving everything to various other pages. Some hazzards simply don't warrant a page, IMO. YMMV.

• I don't see enough information about Ice or Banana Peel to make an article here, but the entries here give players a list of maps to find these features.
• I don't even see a reason for a distinct page on Lava fire. While it is interesting that it is nothing like the Underworld Lava, there isn't much more to say about it beside what is on the hazards section.
• So far, a Gator page could have exactly one sentence.

But, maybe, some staff and users would think it would work that about 5-10 of these pages would just have one paragraph and a list of maps with the effect. YMMV

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (contact)(Help Wanted!) 03:03, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

  Support.

Both overhaul and renaming as suggested on the page are needful for this page.

On the issue of sections, a clear classification method would be useful - based on mechanics or appearances? Like, what's making a pool of crocodiles diffierent from an abyssal pit?

Additionally, a separate section named "Bosses" is weird to me. We may consider renaming it to "Creatures/Entities" according to the prefered classification method, and have Ghosts included - I just realized this one posted a topic for Ghost in 2019 on this page.

13:51, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

"Animal deaths"

  Oppose.

• IIUC, Sharks and Crocodiles are simply animation reskins of Underworld Deadly Waters, which are themselves just Pitfalls with ragdoll bobbing animation. (Infernal Lava is just a Pitfall reskin, AFAIK.) Maybe, I would support a tastefull Water deaths covering Sharks, Crocodiles, and Raging Rapids but also all of the Underworld insta-kill waters that they reskin.
• On the other hand the single Gator is a point contact kill. I have seen other things that would have been a hilarious point contact kills, but Gator is still a one-off.
• Rexxy is much more complex, but all of her mechanics should only be on Enclosure.

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (contact)(Help Wanted!) 03:07, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

At a base level, every hazard that can kill functions the same. They're all triggers that either instantly kill or deal an amount of damage over time, the animal deaths example was just an example of how stuff would be grouped together. All 3 of them are similar in appearance and instantly kill, hence I would count it as a similar group of hazards. It could also be added to "Deadly waters" in general, which would include the animals, instant kill water, boiling water, etc. The point is that we can group many of the hazards together in similar groups rather than all be a different section.
| s | GrampaSwood (talk) (contribs) 12:02, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Move to Environmental hazards

Environmental hazards has been the de facto title for some time, now, more broadly covering the listed effects.

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (contact)(Help Wanted!) 03:10, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Merge Pumpkin bomb and all of the reskins with Pumpkin bomb

Pumpkin bomb already has most of the reskin images, but none of the unique mechanics for each of the reskins.  

Merge all of the Pumpkin bomb reskins content into Pumpkin bomb, especially covering the variant mechanics for each reskin.

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (contact)(Help Wanted!) 03:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Pitfall class

Pitfall is any death trigger surface that instantly kills any player that touches it regardless of any distance fallen. If the trigger surface is the ground, a floor, or infernal lava, the player's ragdoll falls to that surface. If the trigger is some invisible level in air or space, then the player's ragdoll falls through to any visible surface below. If the trigger surface is water, then the player's ragdoll bobs on the water.

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (contact)(Help Wanted!) 11:37, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Really, crocs and sharks are just water surface Pitfalls with animas swimming around somewhere.

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (contact)(Help Wanted!) 11:46, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Brokkhouse confirmed this last statement. The sharks and crocks are just Deadly Waters with added code for the swimming creature animations (which have nothing to do with any hurt) and for the different kill icons.

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (contact)(Help Wanted!) 02:43, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Dissecting Rexxy (on Enclosure)

Rexxy is multifactored, but could be broken down into components. (Costly to experiment with, because she appears at the Final of the third stage, where it is easy to get killed just as you are about to test something.)

1. When BLU caps 3rd final, the Bomb Cart explodes early for insta-kill range effect.
2. Rexxy slams the doors open. The Flying doors seem to also be insta-kills as Falling Debris, but this should be confirmed from source code or developers.
3. Rexxy advances to the Point and is a point contact insta-kill with knockback during Humiliation (like Gator).

A point can make here is that Enclosure Final/Rexxy would be listed in at least three bulk entries rather that in her own section, subject to consensus; 1. Bomb Cart Explosion, 2. Falling Debris, and 3. Contact Kill.

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (contact)(Help Wanted!) 14:25, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Again with Brokkhouse, 1. just a bomb cart explosion. 2. maybe the flung gate doors do something, will have to check the code. 3. The touch kill is basically the same deal as Gator.

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (contact)(Help Wanted!) 02:49, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Falling Debris

With Galleria reminding us about Falling Debris, I want to ask if Falling Debris is really a factor in some Payload Cart Explosions. I know some huge chunks of debris are thrown out. My question is, does the falling bomb cart debris cause secondary insta-kill, maybe farther out than the explosion radius.

If so, falling debris should be part of the Bomb Cart explosion hazard (unless many pl don't have falling debris). Falling debris separate from Bomb Cart explosions should have a separate short list, eg. Galleria and Enclosure/Rexxy. IMO.

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (contact)(Help Wanted!) 14:51, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Brokkhouse stated that the chunks from Cart explosions have no associated hurt effect. The falling debris is unique (for now) to Galleria

"because MCL did some amazing job coding a kill effect to the individual pieces".

So, falling debris is distinctive and notable. IMO

M I K A D O 282 ⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ ⊙⊙ (contact)(Help Wanted!) 02:33, 18 January 2024 (UTC)