Difference between revisions of "Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion/Wiki Cap"

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m (Protected "Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion/Wiki Cap" ([edit=sysop] (indefinite) [move=sysop] (indefinite)))
(Closing discussions... moving to votes to conclude them.)
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Edit as of July 6th: Reformatted to make it easier to answer. Each question has its own section.
 
Edit as of July 6th: Reformatted to make it easier to answer. Each question has its own section.
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== Distribution process ==
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=== Concensus or majority decides recipient? ===
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Should recipients decided by a concensus or majority vote by the discussion attendees?
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:{{c|Majority}}  I'm going with majority here...  I don't think any single attendee should be able to stop somebody receiving a cap if the rest of the attendees think that person deserves it. -[[File:User_RJackson_Signature_Colon_DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.png|link=User:RJackson|200px]] 16:11, 17 July 2011 (PDT)
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=== IRC logs be visible? ===
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Should the IRC logs of the discussion be public?
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:{{c|yes}} The ability for the community to review what we're saying, I think, will add a bit of pressure to make well informed decisions. -[[File:User_RJackson_Signature_Colon_DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.png|link=User:RJackson|200px]] 16:11, 17 July 2011 (PDT)
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=== Invite trusted editors to the discussion? ===
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Should trusted editors be able to partake in the discussion?
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:{{c|yes}} I think the more people partaking in the discussion would reduce the effects of any personal bias'/"friends of the admins". -[[File:User_RJackson_Signature_Colon_DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.png|link=User:RJackson|200px]] 16:11, 17 July 2011 (PDT)
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== Closed discussions ==
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Discussions that are considered to have been completed will be moved here.
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{{Discussion header|top}}
  
 
== Distribution model ==
 
== Distribution model ==
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* I nominate and approve the nominate-and-approve model. It requires effort on part of mods, but on the other hand valuable contributors naturally tend to get noticed. <span style="font-size:x-small">Also why are we using bullets instead of indents like civilized people</span> — [[File:User nVis s.png|link=User:nVis]] 23:14, 11 July 2011 (PDT)
 
* I nominate and approve the nominate-and-approve model. It requires effort on part of mods, but on the other hand valuable contributors naturally tend to get noticed. <span style="font-size:x-small">Also why are we using bullets instead of indents like civilized people</span> — [[File:User nVis s.png|link=User:nVis]] 23:14, 11 July 2011 (PDT)
 
* I have to admit that I have some qualms about the nominate-and-approve model, if only because some of us are relatively lazy. If anything, I think that one/several of us should keep a permanent but private list of discussed candidates somewhere, even if only on someone's HDD, so that we don't risk forgetting anybody and can keep discussions ongoing even if a vote fails. I'm fine with staff nominating users and then approving it via vote, but it needs at least some form of fallback. --{{User:LordKelvin/Signature}} 12:22, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
 
* I have to admit that I have some qualms about the nominate-and-approve model, if only because some of us are relatively lazy. If anything, I think that one/several of us should keep a permanent but private list of discussed candidates somewhere, even if only on someone's HDD, so that we don't risk forgetting anybody and can keep discussions ongoing even if a vote fails. I'm fine with staff nominating users and then approving it via vote, but it needs at least some form of fallback. --{{User:LordKelvin/Signature}} 12:22, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
 
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{{Discussion header|bottom}}
== Distribution process ==
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{{Discussion header|top}}
=== How ===
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=== How? ===
 
How should the discussion happen? Should it be done in instant-style IRC, or on a talk page or a forum or something?
 
How should the discussion happen? Should it be done in instant-style IRC, or on a talk page or a forum or something?
 
* IRC can get messy if we're having lots of people to "review".  Doing it on the Wiki has the advantages of organisation and the pressure of the community being able to review what's written, however it has the disadvantage of being publicly editable (we want to keep the voting exclusive) - we could change the permissions so it's staff only, but then my expanding the discussions to "trusted editors" idea would be unfeasible on the Wiki without implementing a new user group and permissions directly in the MediaWiki configuration files. -[[File:User_RJackson_Signature_Colon_DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.png|link=User:RJackson|200px]] 16:40, 6 July 2011 (PDT)
 
* IRC can get messy if we're having lots of people to "review".  Doing it on the Wiki has the advantages of organisation and the pressure of the community being able to review what's written, however it has the disadvantage of being publicly editable (we want to keep the voting exclusive) - we could change the permissions so it's staff only, but then my expanding the discussions to "trusted editors" idea would be unfeasible on the Wiki without implementing a new user group and permissions directly in the MediaWiki configuration files. -[[File:User_RJackson_Signature_Colon_DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.png|link=User:RJackson|200px]] 16:40, 6 July 2011 (PDT)
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* I will throw my vote in on IRC as well. One of the things I remember being discussed before was making a private forum elsewhere, but that just screams "cabal" and isn't exactly reliable; doing things on the Wiki is very slow as well. On IRC, we can hammer a discussion out in two or three days with enough determination, whereas the same thing would take weeks or months on the Wiki. --{{User:LordKelvin/Signature}} 12:22, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
 
* I will throw my vote in on IRC as well. One of the things I remember being discussed before was making a private forum elsewhere, but that just screams "cabal" and isn't exactly reliable; doing things on the Wiki is very slow as well. On IRC, we can hammer a discussion out in two or three days with enough determination, whereas the same thing would take weeks or months on the Wiki. --{{User:LordKelvin/Signature}} 12:22, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
  
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:{{c|Notice}} Decision: Discussions in an IRC channel. -[[File:User_RJackson_Signature_Colon_DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.png|link=User:RJackson|200px]] 16:11, 17 July 2011 (PDT)
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{{Discussion header|bottom}}
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{{Discussion header|top}}
 
=== When ===
 
=== When ===
 
Should the discussion happen on a regular basis or not? If it is, is a consensus expected to be reached every time? If it is not, when should it be considered that a consensus has been reached?
 
Should the discussion happen on a regular basis or not? If it is, is a consensus expected to be reached every time? If it is not, when should it be considered that a consensus has been reached?
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* I would like to propose, as above, a permanent but private list of candidates be kept for ''continuous'' staff discussion. When someone catches our eye, we discuss it continuously and ask staff opinion as they come into the channel. If someone gathers enough approval, they get capped, otherwise they stay on the list with notations about how the vote went and what overall staff opinion of that user is, which can be brought up again at a later point. This way, there's regularity in that candidates can be discussed all the time, but non-regularity in that it's impossible to predict when someone might get a cap. --{{User:LordKelvin/Signature}} 12:22, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
 
* I would like to propose, as above, a permanent but private list of candidates be kept for ''continuous'' staff discussion. When someone catches our eye, we discuss it continuously and ask staff opinion as they come into the channel. If someone gathers enough approval, they get capped, otherwise they stay on the list with notations about how the vote went and what overall staff opinion of that user is, which can be brought up again at a later point. This way, there's regularity in that candidates can be discussed all the time, but non-regularity in that it's impossible to predict when someone might get a cap. --{{User:LordKelvin/Signature}} 12:22, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
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: {{c|notice}} Decision:  Discussions will be regular.  Still deciding on consensus vs majority (See above). -[[File:User_RJackson_Signature_Colon_DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.png|link=User:RJackson|200px]] 16:11, 17 July 2011 (PDT)
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{{Discussion header|bottom}}
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{{Discussion header|top}}
  
 
=== Visibility ===
 
=== Visibility ===
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* I think a record is a good thing, TBH. Making staff channel logs available to the public lets them keep tabs on what we're doing, so there's no complaints about "staff conspiracy" or whatnot. I still think cap discussions should be staff-only (no offense to non-staff longtime members), but I'm amenable to changing that as well depending on the circumstances and arguments. --{{User:LordKelvin/Signature}} 12:22, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
 
* I think a record is a good thing, TBH. Making staff channel logs available to the public lets them keep tabs on what we're doing, so there's no complaints about "staff conspiracy" or whatnot. I still think cap discussions should be staff-only (no offense to non-staff longtime members), but I'm amenable to changing that as well depending on the circumstances and arguments. --{{User:LordKelvin/Signature}} 12:22, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
  
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{{c|notice}} Discussion still in-flux, will be concluded above via voting. -[[File:User_RJackson_Signature_Colon_DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.png|link=User:RJackson|200px]] 16:11, 17 July 2011 (PDT)
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{{Discussion header|bottom}}
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{{Discussion header|top}}
 
== Drops ==
 
== Drops ==
 
Even if the "reunions" are made to be regular, the drops don't have to be. They can be randomized, though it may seem a bit silly. What do?
 
Even if the "reunions" are made to be regular, the drops don't have to be. They can be randomized, though it may seem a bit silly. What do?
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* My opinion is simply to give someone a cap once they get enough approval, no regularity in it. If we discuss users as per my recommendation above (continuous with permanent record), then giving people caps as they earn them will produce zero regularity. --{{User:LordKelvin/Signature}} 12:22, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
 
* My opinion is simply to give someone a cap once they get enough approval, no regularity in it. If we discuss users as per my recommendation above (continuous with permanent record), then giving people caps as they earn them will produce zero regularity. --{{User:LordKelvin/Signature}} 12:22, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
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:{{c|notice}} Decision:  Drop as soon as a recipient is decided. -[[File:User_RJackson_Signature_Colon_DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.png|link=User:RJackson|200px]] 16:11, 17 July 2011 (PDT)
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{{Discussion header|bottom}}

Revision as of 23:11, 17 July 2011


Bringing back this to life, we need to decide how to proceed on Wiki Cap distribution in the future.


A reminder of some now-established points:

  • Using a list and a scoring system is broken, leads to unproductively competitive behavior from users, and to over-reliance on it from staff
  • While distribution on a weekly basis seemed like a good idea to regulate the number of total Wiki Caps in existence, it had the side-effect of the community having the false expectation for it to happen without fail every week, and proved to be too slow at times, causing frustration
  • The English and Russian parts of the Wiki being complete, there has been an issue of people creating work for themselves in order to get more edits
  • The combination of these things turned the Wiki Cap into a standalone reason to edit, rather than a reward for doing so
  • The Wiki Cap guidelines need to be rewritten


Here are some solutions that have come up in order to address those issues:

  • Using a list and a scoring system is broken, leads to unproductively competitive behavior from users, and to over-reliance on it from staff
    • Pictogram tick.png Done: Delete the Wiki Cap candidates list, and stop using the Wiki Cap scoring script entirely
  • While distribution on a weekly basis seemed like a good idea to regulate the number of total Wiki Caps in existence, it had the side-effect of the community having the false expectation for it to happen without fail every week, and proved to be too slow at times, causing frustration
    • Pictogram tick.png Done: Dispel the notion that drops will happen every week; we did that by not giving anything on June 26th
    • The frequency to give it may be irregular now. However, getting everyone together in order to decide on distribution requires a generally-agreed-upon moment when people are there, which may vary over time in order to keep it irregular
    • Volume/rarity concerns should be disregarded; even if all editors with over 500 edits or so got a Wiki Cap, it would still be considered a rare item
  • The English and Russian parts of the Wiki being complete, there has been an issue of people creating work for themselves in order to get more edits
    • Pictogram tick.png Done The deletion of the list should help this, as edit count matters less now, and is less visible
  • The combination of these things turned the Wiki Cap into a standalone reason to edit, rather than a reward for doing so
    • This needs to be more emphasized into the Wiki Cap guidelines
    • Rewarding users based on other things than editing (e.g. outstanding community contribution, à la Shugo (item icons), Michael (highlander team), or Benjamoose (promo material, graphics, general awesomeness))
    • This should make the "bias towards IRC members" more widely accepted, since IRC is a great way to get involved in more community-related matters other than pure editing. However, it should never be completely mandatory to use it
  • The Wiki Cap guidelines need to be rewritten
    • This can only be done when all of the above is settled


The method most people were leaning towards as of the last discussion was to do it on a nominate-and-approve basis:

  • Staff members (or maybe regular contributions?) can nominate people and explain the reasons behind the nomination
  • The rest of the staff reviews the nomination and approves, or declines, explaining their decision in case of a "no".

Multiple questions arise:

  • When and where does this discussion happen?
  • Can regular contributors see it?
    • If yes, can they also nominate others?
  • Does an approval require unanimity? Does it require a threshold of "yes"'s? Does a nomination expire if nobody says anything?

Last point: Robin said, in the email in which he talked about wiki cap distribution, that we may run any changes past by him. This is such a change, so his opinion should be taken into account before making any decision final. — Wind 11:43, 3 July 2011 (PDT)


Edit as of July 6th: Reformatted to make it easier to answer. Each question has its own section.

Distribution process

Concensus or majority decides recipient?

Should recipients decided by a concensus or majority vote by the discussion attendees?

Pictogram comment.png Majority I'm going with majority here... I don't think any single attendee should be able to stop somebody receiving a cap if the rest of the attendees think that person deserves it. -User RJackson Signature Colon DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.png 16:11, 17 July 2011 (PDT)


IRC logs be visible?

Should the IRC logs of the discussion be public?

Pictogram tick.png Yes The ability for the community to review what we're saying, I think, will add a bit of pressure to make well informed decisions. -User RJackson Signature Colon DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.png 16:11, 17 July 2011 (PDT)

Invite trusted editors to the discussion?

Should trusted editors be able to partake in the discussion?

Pictogram tick.png Yes I think the more people partaking in the discussion would reduce the effects of any personal bias'/"friends of the admins". -User RJackson Signature Colon DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.png 16:11, 17 July 2011 (PDT)


Closed discussions

Discussions that are considered to have been completed will be moved here.