User:Mikado282/Weapon Museum

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Holy Cr*p!!! It is Radigan's Wrench!!!!

This page is effectively a sandbox for a pro forma review of the edit war on August 30 (Sniper Rifle, SMG) and subsequent deletion of several trivia and lead descriptions. My initial sample incidentally fell on the removal of one long-accepted, well-supported trivia that was on an item that I was very experienced with IRL, perhaps too familiar with it for the sake of cohesion.

The objective is to give a review to each of these items, which is expected of all edits. A concern is whether the criteria against speculation is evenly applied to all Trivia and applied consistent with past standards. If the criteria has in fact changed, or is applied differently between types of content, then there should be some review and update to the Trivia guidelines. In particular, there is the question of whether a subject itself is evidence of a basis or resemblance in a notable real life item; there are hundreds of Trivia accepted on this basis on the wiki. Examples of the latter are being collected below.

Generational thinking

"The sociological theory of a generation gap first came to light in 1968, ...", Wikipedia

I came across an IRC conversation about the time frame of TF2 content (it is 60s-70s with some earlier items). This got me to thinking about how there are generation gaps among us editors.

  • Sheesh, I reckon most newer editors are now roughly university age, late-Generation Z, not even Millennials.
  • TF2 started a generation ago. We are getting to the point where there will be an increasing portion of editors younger than the game.
  • The developers and artists of the whole franchise are Generation X, some Boomers are among the artists. They are not Millennials.
  • Your first nostalgia is for the decades before your birth.
  • So,
    • The new editors' first perspectives are looking back upon the childhood and youth of the TF developers. (80s-90s)
    • While the TF developers' first perspectives were looking back upon the childhood and youth of Mikado282. (60s-70s)

Existing Trivia that are wholly reliant on the thing

Engineer Update Trivia: "A sketch of a Robo-Scout from the Mann vs. Machine game mode can be seen in the initial update page, based off the Vitruvian Man as drawn by Leonardo da Vinci."

No evidence is provided besides the image itself that the artist based the image off the Vitruvian Man.

Mecha Update Trivia: "The preview page of the Mecha Update is directly based off the movie poster of the Japanese, sci-fi kaiju film, "Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II."

No evidence is provided besides the image itself that the artist based the image off the Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II. Personal: the art was meant to evoke the spirit of the movie poster. Like any other fan, it invoked in me the sensation of Godzilla. I went to my movie collection and saw that the Update poster matched the movie poster.

Tomislav lead description and Trivia:

Even though I have always reacted to this as if it was a US 50 cal aircraft gun. But careful consideration teaches me that what looks like the typical US 50 cal barrel spring could also be the cooling fins on Army Thompson. Really, no evidence is provided besides the name and image itself that Valve meant the model to be a Thompsom SMG. However, as modified as it is, it might be more recognizable as a Thompson SMG than the Scrapped SMG.

A Visual History Trivia: "Steve Jobs, Co-founder, Chairman, and CEO of Apple Inc., wore black, long-sleeved sweaters daily as a personal uniform, and he often slid the sleeves up."

No evidence is provided besides the context of the Comic and the Comic's image itself that the artist based the image in the last frame off of Steve Jobs. In fact, the younger Millennials in my office didn't associate Steve Jobs with black turtleneck shirts!

DRILLER: Dave Riller, a game designer at Valve.

Maybe. Who's word do we take on this? No evidence is provided besides the image itself that the image is a tribute to Dave Riller. Is this acceptable speculation? Maybe the wiki is wrong and the artist simply intended to represent agricultural equipment.

Review of reference removals

Review is expected of all edits; some edits take more time and care to review, especially those made in volume on difficult issues. The list started with trivia removals of August 30 and then has expanded as other similar removals have been made since then, and related Trivia is observed.

"Stylized" is an unfortunate use of a weasel word. It used adds nothing because, by definition, everything visible in the game is stylized. In fact, the very use of "Stylized" is speculative, implying that the item is based on reality, but somehow intentionally altered.

Preliminary assessments: In most cases, I am supportive of several removals, but not for Speculation. In some of these cases, I think their removal is justifiable for rather regular reasons [e.g., the statement is easily wrong (Not true, Irrelevant, Misplaced), or not interesting, or too minutia to be notable, the item is representative to the broad type, not a specific object), but not because of speculation. My feeling is that speculation is too easy to throw out there where other tags may take more time to validate.

This exercise does illustrate the effort for non-topic experts (that is, most buck editors) to assess statements of expertise; not every posted Trivia or Reference is correct, but it takes knowledge to assess whether it is correct, assume good faith not withstanding. Personally, I enjoy obtaining such knowledge, but I grant that other editors have other priorities, and, in reality, obtaining the knowledge can take more time than I really have.

  • Wrench: It is indeed very much like the very innovative Coess Wrench. The only caveat though is that there were some copies of the design (I have a much later one) and I and not prepared to look into the points of difference. What is unambiguous is that the Valve Wrench was based on a tool that would have been antique in 1968. It was no accident that Valve chose this wrench for Engineer; their design exists nowhere except in narrow focused antique collections -- Valve had something in mind. Development was too early for them to be planning that it would be his grandfather's ... Holy Cr*p!!! It is Radigan's Wrench!!!!
  • Flame Thrower: IMO, the model resembles the M1 as much as it resembles general flamethrower designs in that form follows function. What the model really shows is that the Pyro cobbled the thing together at the gas station where he worked.
  • Syringe Gun: ‎ While it does look like Valve had something they based it on, the removed trivia was not it. It is challengine, since Valve often cobbled things together from multiple recognizable items (e.g., Medi Gun and Flame Thrower).
  • Grenade Launcher: The removed Trivia probably was reasonably valid in general form. There ARE distinctive elements to the Grenade Launcher, which can be found in the poster's removed examples. I think it should be noted that the grenade launcher has a real basis, or bases, like in the distinctive butt and in the rotary chambers, but the latter need not be mentioned if rotary chambers are common among different IRL launchers. We can agree, tautologically, that the Grenade Launcher is a Grenade Launcher, but only because the thing itself speaks, it looks like Grenade Launcher, at least in general if not specific layout.
  • Rocket Launcher: ‎ The particular analysis in the Trivia was too complicated to review, probably.
  • Knife: Probably true, the only proof needed is the broad fact that the tang pin is essential to the general weapon type. However, the point is maybe too nuanced, and there is reason for Valve to not show the tang pin, namely, it is just too fine a detail to model. Therefore, the real reason to remove the Trivia should have been "not notable".
  • Kukri: ‎ The item is indeed a Kukri knife within the range of style of the very historic tool. The saying, "A running knife can slit many throats" was about this knife. It is the Indian Bowie Knife, IMO. The association with the British Empire as well as Sniper's accent is abundantly clear in history. In this case the item name could not be any more accurate to the model and there should be a link in the lead. The current description could probably be improved; to Sniper, its a bush knife. Google "bush knife" and you see IRL Kukri sold on Amazon.
Who the heck decided that it was a railroad Wrench? Mine IRL Wrench was my wife's grandfather's and he worked for the railroad. Heh. Update: See Talk:Wrench#.22Railroad_monkey_wrench.22.
  • Shovel‎: Given the development records that Valve has provided as well as the high detail that Valve put into this particular item, there is little reason to speculate that Valve did not base the Shovel on a real folding shovel, a specific one in fact. However, a heightened review of the model is advised.
    • With the addition of the pick and the two holes, the Market Gardener is clearly the M-1951 companion to the M-1943 Shovel. This is the model I saw most often at school and with the Boy Scouts. However, neither teal item had the T-handle. The T-handle was limited to holdovers from WWI. This is part of the US Airborne tribute set, and the US Airborne were issued shorter T-handled, non-folding shovels. Additionally, I would have to see if ANY US WWII folding shovel had the pick, otherwise, the pick on the Market Gardner is anachronistic to the WWII theme of the item set.
  • Revolver: Similar response as for Shovel. This is a historic pistol and is at first glance simply a 1968 Colt revolver‎.
  • Pistol: ‎The second two points are clear TVIO other than ...
  • Sniper rifle: Honestly, I would expect the Sniper Rifle to be an M1, not the other mentioned rifles. The model may very well look more like an M1 than the other rifles mentioned. The scope is completely inconsistent with any day scope, begging the question of why did Valve model a night scope.
  • Tranquilizer Gun: Maybe, maybe not. The lead is enough. Maybe they had one of these on Daktari? But yes, it does have features of the type. If it does look like a typical tranq gun, it probably does not need to be said.
  • SMG‎: The first thing that leaps to mind is not Thompson. Maybe the item could make the case, but it didn't seem worth it. But, yes, what does a Thompson look like partially stripped down. I am not saying they are wrong, but the correctness of the editor's observation is not relevant. Maybe a side-by-side of the SMG and Tomislav could be done someday.Pictogram tick.png Dead! Update, regardless of the name and the wiki, Tomislav seems to have very little to do with the Thompson. The Tomislav has always impressed me as an aircraft 50 cal, but, I was wrong!