Template talk:Damage table
Contents
- 1 DPS
- 2 Trumpeting time
- 3 Using non-integers
- 4 Non-damage related values
- 5 Rehit rate/damage interval
- 6 Attack interval (ru)
- 7 Random Critical Type
- 8 flame particle maximum distance
- 9 Charge Damage
- 10 Many entries of the same language
- 11 Are damage tables...broken?
- 12 Recharge parameter broken
- 13 Effect range section broken
- 14 Holster/deploy speed
- 15 Option to remove "See also: Damage"
- 16 Clearing up Sniper Rifle(s) charge stat ambiguity, requires new parameters
- 17 Decimal separator
DPS
On this page uses this notion. I think need add it. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nik9990 (talk) • (contribs)
- For now, you should use a tooltip for DPS values. For an example, see Syringe Gun. —
nVis 16:30, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
I think that DPS on a tooltip, the way it is today, is not readily visible, and it's not dictated by the template, creating fragmentation. In my opinion we should add DPS as another column, as doubling the number of rows for this purpose would be too much. --Marcotulio (talk) 16:24, 17 March 2014 (PDT)
Trumpeting time
Parameter is missing. "Trumpeting Time" for Battalion's Backup and Buff Banner. --Nik9990 Talk | Cont 19:58, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
Done activation time—
nVis 09:27, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Using non-integers
Would it be more accurate to state damages as real numbers? Degreaser afterburn is 2.25 per tick, Fan O' War has a base of 3.5, Powerjack has a base of 81.25, and so on. Toomai Glittershine 14:51, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
Would it be possible to add parameters for other aspects of weapons, such as the self-damage reduction for the Gunboats; the fire and explosive resistance, and charge length for the Chargin' Targe and Splendid Screen? TheChrisD Rants•Edits 00:38, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
Rehit rate/damage interval
Something should be added to accomodate for the Righteous Bison's rehit rate. Toomai Glittershine 09:32, 25 July 2011 (PDT)
Attack interval (ru)
Attack interval в русской версии: Интервал атаки
Может правильнее Интервал между атаками? [RUS] ANGEL_UNDEAD 12:56, 25 September 2011 (PDT)
Random Critical Type
It'd be great if there was a way to see what kind of random crit a weapon did, be it rapid-fire, single-shot, or none.Darkychao (talk) 19:45, 1 July 2014 (PDT)
flame particle maximum distance
just tested it along 2 axes, and the very edge of the reach is 330hu, not 384 as the damage table's tooltip states. Isildur4 (talk) 12:28, 9 September 2014 (PDT)
Charge Damage
I plan to add Charge Damage, Mini-crit charge damage, and Charge Speed. This will be for the Demoman's shields. Tell me if any are too similar to another already in existence. I can add them once an OK is set. DC64 (talk) 13:06, 17 December 2014 (PST)
Many entries of the same language
"metal cost repairing"
ja = 修理の消費メタル ja = 修理コスト
"drop expiry"
fr = Durée de disparition de l'objet jetté fr = Expiration de l'objet jeté
"zoom headshot delay"
pt-br = Atraso de headshot com zoom pt-br = Delay de headshot de zoom
"aim fatigue"
pt-br = Cansaço de mira pt-br = Fadiga da mira
Funandjoy (talk) 15:20, 12 December 2015 (PST)
Are damage tables...broken?
Right now, every damage table I see has white spaces instead of the normal information. For example, on Sandvich, this is what I see:
I know it looks like some terrible MS Paint editing, but I swear, I didn't alter the photo other than crop it.
This has only started happening recently, maybe at the same time as the Internal Error shenanigan, though I'm not sure if both are related. Anyar (talk) 18:48, 24 February 2017 (PST)
- Probably my fault, I made an update to the template and I guess it wasn't tested thoroughly enough. Darkid « Talk — Contribs » 20:26, 24 February 2017 (PST)
- Still not completely fixed. The white bars are gone, but for some tables like the one for the Frontier Justice, the formatting is off. Anyar (talk) 17:03, 25 February 2017 (PST)
Recharge parameter broken
For Razorback, Jarate, and more, the "recharge" parameter that is used and is also included in the documentation does not show up in the actual table. I do not know how to fix this. ⇒
Anyar (talk/contributions/giveaway) 17:10, 20 October 2017 (PDT)
Effect range section broken
The effect range stat is broken: it shows up to the right of the table (as seen on Battalion's Backup). Can someone please fix it ? I've tried, without success :/
Azsofe (talk) 13:56, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
Holster/deploy speed
Some weapons have a slower/faster deploy/holster speed than other weapons, however this is something that more than 1 weapon shares. On Common weapon mechanics (a now-deleted page), someone felt the need to add the default switch speed and add some of the values for other weapons. I think it would add quite a lot of value to weapon pages if there was a deploy/holster parameter.
The only thing that would have to be special about it is maybe having a tooltip on the holster one that says something similar to "Holster speed is the speed at which the next weapon is being deployed". The only issue with that is that the Thermal Thruster is unique because it is the only weapon with an actual holster animation.
GrampaSwood (talk) 17:13, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- The list of weapons with a holster/deploy stat: Degreaser, Atomizer, Thermal Thruster, any Demo sword, Ullapool Caber, Gloves of Running Urgently, Fists of Steel, Reserve Shooter, and Panic Attack.
GrampaSwood (talk) 17:21, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
I agree on adding an additional parameter that states the deploy speed of the weapon. However, this new stat would only really benefit a niche group of players within the TF2 community, and that niche being the ones in the competitive landscape, since the deploy speed of any weapon can affect the strategy of a team during the match, or in other scenarios the deploy speed that be a turnover for one of the teams, in my opinion.
- Regarding how to measure the deploy speed, I have two thoughts, either we can:
- Use the stock/default weapons' deploy speed as base variable and compare it to the weapon in question.
- Or just measure like any other stat and use actual seconds it takes as measurement, without comparing it to any weapon.
- Yossef | Talk | Contributions 18:14, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think it also benefits the general userbase, as seeing "50% faster deploy speed" without any reference for the base speed makes it basically just guess guess work. Deploy speed of a weapon doesn't matter in competitive at all, it's just a good stat to have similar to reload time of a weapon or a firerate. Also, it would just simply be the time it takes in seconds. For most it would just be the usual 0.5 seconds.
GrampaSwood (talk) 18:18, 7 July 2022 (UTC)- Regarding the "compared measurement proposal", we can use a toolnip that explains to which stock item is that weapon being compared to, of course it'll be with the respective weapon category (Primary, Secondary, Melee), so users won't have to guess if they see "50% faster deploy speed". Regardless, having the detailed time in seconds would also work. Yossef | Talk | Contributions 18:32, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think it also benefits the general userbase, as seeing "50% faster deploy speed" without any reference for the base speed makes it basically just guess guess work. Deploy speed of a weapon doesn't matter in competitive at all, it's just a good stat to have similar to reload time of a weapon or a firerate. Also, it would just simply be the time it takes in seconds. For most it would just be the usual 0.5 seconds.
Option to remove "See also: Damage"
The articles for multi-class weapons use this table more than once in case their stats change for one or more classes, and everytime the "See also: Damage" is there.
I've noticed it's related to thedamage parameter; however, removing it removes not just the See also, but several of the table's lines as well.
Would it be possible to add an option to remove the "See also: Damage", similar to how {{Set}} has an option to remove "Main article: Item sets"? - BrazilianNut (talk) 09:08, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
Clearing up Sniper Rifle(s) charge stat ambiguity, requires new parameters
The current Sniper Rifle damage stat page is ambiguous and has multiple charge-related stats either separated (max charge time separates charge delay from the total charge time) or merged together when they shouldn't be (zoom charging delay and charge damage delay). This results in the charge stats being ambiguous and easily misunderstood (e.g. misconstruing that the Sniper Rifles takes 4.3s to fully charge instead of 3.3s like it actually does).
I would like to change the charge stat section from the current:
- | function times = yes
- | attack interval = 1.5 s
- | zoom charge delay = 1.3 s
- | zoom headshot delay = 0.2 s
- | max charge time = 3 s
to
- | function times = yes
- | attack interval = 1.5 s
- | zoom charging delay = 0.3 s
- | zoom charge damage delay = 1.0 s
- | max charge time = 3.0 s
- | total charge time = 3.3 s
- | zoom headshot delay = 0.2 s
This will require the following new parameters to be added:
- zoom charging delay
- zoom charge damage delay
- total charge time
This is much more accurate to how the weapon functions, and is more easily understood without the chance for misunderstanding. This will also allow for some of the unlock weapons that have different charge stats (namely, Bazaar Bargain, Classic, and Hitman's Heatmaker) to have more accurate stat pages.
SileAnimus (talk) 23:55, 20 February 2025 (UTC)
I think that this is quite a good idea, it would certainly prevent the confusion that I've been subjected to when first reading the sniper articles. Lolimsogreat21 (talk) 00:23, 21 February 2025 (UTC)Lolimsogreat21
Oppose, listing 0.3, then 3.0, then 3.3 is much more confusing than it is to just list the one total charge value with an explanation. At most I would support adding zoom charge damage delay as a separate row, but even that is not really necessary imo. I'm also not sure this is better, as each value has a tooltip to explain what it means (and we should try to avoid tooltips if we can). As for having it be more accurate for the other rifles, for the Bazaar Bargain a graph is preferable to listing all values in this small table (which should only list the minimum and maximum values in this case) and for the Hitman's Heatmaker we already have the normal and focus values on there so I don't see what that would improve. I'm not sure what different stats the Classic would have, I can't see anything that would require table modification here, only the max charge time applies here which is already a table row.
| s | GrampaSwood
(talk) (contribs) 00:46, 21 February 2025 (UTC)
- Every charge stat on the Sniper Rifle page already has tooltips, this would be separating and better displaying the stats that are embedded within the tooltips so that the tooltips can be used explicitly for clarification instead of nesting other information. The point of this suggestion is to provide better clarification of the nested stats by splitting them into their own sections. Most weapons that have multiple interwoven mechanics on the wiki tend to have those mechanic stats listed separately (when reasonable) with tooltips being used to explain the information. The Sniper Rifle is the only weapon (that I have seen, at least) that has weapon stats that are explicitly hidden from view but only explicitly mentioned across tooltips; Additionally it is the only weapon that has a summary stat that is outright misleading (maximum charge time) entirely because it has to exclude that nested information because it is merged into a different stat.
- For an example of how this nested information results in inaccurate and misleading pages: The current Sniper Rifle page states that the Sniper Rifle has a "Maximum charge time" of 3.0s, but on the Hitman's Hitmaker's page it stats that it has a "Maximum charge time" of 3.3s which is inaccurate because "Maximum charge time" has been defined, per the Sniper Rifle, as the charge time stat entirely separated from the "zoom charging delay"- since that stat has been defined as being nested and combined in the "Zoom-in charging delay". This results in the Hitman's page effectively stating that the Hitmans has a 10% slower charge rate- and because of how this stat has been compensated/nested into the "Zoom-in charging delay" stat the Hitman's page effectively states that the Hitman's only has increased charge if in Focus while zoomed in and reloading- which is wrong.
- The Classic also an inaccurate charge time because of this information nesting, but I have corrected it as of making this talk page post.
- By separating the merged stats into their individual components, all of this confusion and inaccuracy can be rectified- which is the goal of my recommendation of adding these parameters.
- SileAnimus (talk) 01:17, 21 February 2025 (UTC)
- I know what the point of the suggestion is, but in my opinion the current way of doing it is better. It's impossible to please everyone and have a perfect way of doing it. Having them split up into multiple 5 rows instead of 2, when you can easily merge 2 of the rows into just a simple tooltip is a much better looking (as in easier to read/understand) system that doesn't end up with with somewhat duplicate information. Saying "X (consisting of Y and Z)" is much better than "X, Y, xy", you might understand one better but that doesn't mean it is that way for the average reader. Like I said, the only row I see value in is zoom charge damage delay (and imo the damage starting to charge is not part of this stat anyway, but it could also just be left as in the tooltip as "0.3 s". Either format works for me personally).
- The inconsistency between the two pages doesn't have anything to do with the tooltips being wrong on one or the other, it's simply that one was changed without the other. This happens rather frequently on weapon articles' Damage and function times, but fixing it all essentially requires documenting every single value on your own. I've been working on this on-and-off for a while now, but there's no reason why you can't fix these now to be consistent across all the articles to either mention only the 3.0 s or the 3.3s. It's not related to these 3 new rows and I don't see it as a good argument for it, but rather a consistency issue entirely out of the scope of this discussion. If it's made consistent one way or another, that's good, I personally would suggest 3.0 s with "3.3 s including charge delay" in a tooltip.
- The reason we should avoid excessive tooltips usage is because they don't work on mobile, and quite a lot of our users are mobile users. Tooltips aren't banned to use, but they should be used sparingly (like if information needs to be clarified while saving space, in this case). I also don't think there's a good way to word these rows while keeping it short, but that's something you may be able to do so it's not very relevant but still a concern. Looking at it now, I also don't see how
zoom charging delayis that much different fromzoom charge delayas to what information it would convey. Surely that one can just be repurposed into being used for the 0.3 seconds before it starts charging? If these issues can be addressed I could support adding it, but right now I feel like having "Charge delay: 0.3 s. Max charge time: 3 s. Total charge time: 3.3s" is just simply too confusing.
| s | GrampaSwood
(talk) (contribs) 02:16, 21 February 2025 (UTC)
- This is fair criticism. I've spent some time thinking it over from both your reply here and our discussion within DMs. From the previous suggestion, "zoom charging delay" has been removed due to similarity with "zoom charge delay" (my recommendation for this was largely just to make the name better differentiated). "zoom charge damage delay" has been reduced to "charge damage delay" for brevity, "total charge time" has been removed as it is a stat better explained in the direct text of how the weapon functions. The overall recommendation then changes to be as follows:
- * | function times = yes (unchanged)
- * | attack interval = 1.5 s (unchanged)
- * | zoom charge delay = 0.3 s (changed from 1.3, tooltip removed)
- * | charge damage delay = 1.0 s (this would be a new parameter)
- * | maximum charge time = 3.0 s (tooltip removed, since zoom charge delay now states the stat)
- * | zoom headshot delay = 0.2 s (unchanged)
- This would only require one additional parameter to be added ("charge damage delay"). But I do feel that it would be best to better explain how the Sniper Rifle's charging system works in the main Sniper Rifle explanation text. If allowed, I would like to change the 2nd and 3rd paragraph to the following (italics added to make the changes more apparent, hyperlinks would not be changed obviously):
- "The rifle has no spread, no damage ramp-up or fall-off, and has a zoom sight like all of Sniper's other primaries (with the exception of the Huntsman and the Fortified Compound). The zoom display features a charge meter and a small, faded team-colored laser dot in the center. After zooming-in there is a 0.3 second delay before the charge meter begins to fill. A fuller charge meter increases the damage done by a shot. The damage of a shot is only increased after 1 second of charging (33% full meter) and is fully increased after 3 total seconds of charging. This results in an overall charge time of 3.3 seconds since zooming-in. The charge meter resets to 0% after a shot is fired or when exiting the scope without shooting. Firing the Sniper Rifle while unzoomed deals the same damage as a scoped bodyshot at 0% charge. When zoomed, the Sniper's movement speed is reduced to 27% and slows even further to 1.33% when crouching. Furthermore, zooming cannot be performed when the Sniper is jumping or falling after jumping; however, falling off a ledge without jumping or getting knocked into the air does not inhibit scoping."
- "The Sniper Rifle does not deliver random Critical hits; however, if the player hits a headshot, a shot to an enemy's head while zoomed in, it is a guaranteed Critical hit. Headshots cannot be hit while unscoped. The Sniper Rifle is unable to headshot for 0.2 seconds after zooming-in. Unlike other hitscan weapons, the Sniper Rifle and the Sniper's other primaries are able to penetrate friendly players."
- With the addition of the one parameter, the change of the stats to be less easily misunderstood, and the improved accuracy of the Sniper Rifle's function description text (which removes the need for the number of tooltips on the stats)- I think that the overall quality of the Sniper Rifle page would be improved. If approved, I would gladly go through and apply these changes to the other Sniper Rifle's pages as appropriate to make sure that all of the Rifles have consistent stats and descriptions.
- SileAnimus (talk) 00:34, 24 February 2025 (UTC)
- I think this would be a good solution, I would only make some changes to the wording:
- "The rifle has no spread, no damage ramp-up or fall-off, and has a zoom sight like all of Sniper's other primaries (with the exception of the Huntsman and the Fortified Compound). The zoom display features a charge meter and a small, faded team-colored laser dot in the center. After zooming in there is a 0.3 second delay before the charge meter begins to fill. The higher charge, the more damage a shot deals. The damage dealt by a shot only starts increasing after second of charging (33% charge meter) and reaches max damage after a total of 3 seconds of charging for an overall charge time of 3.3 seconds from the moment of zooming in to the moment of reaching full charge. The charge meter resets to 0% after a shot is fired or when unscoping without shooting. Firing the Sniper Rifle while unzoomed deals the same damage as a scoped bodyshot at 0% charge. When zoomed, the Sniper's movement speed is reduced to 27% and slows even further to 1.33% when crouching. Furthermore, zooming cannot be performed when the Sniper is jumping or falling after jumping; however, falling off a ledge without jumping or getting knocked into the air does not inhibit scoping."
- "The Sniper Rifle does not deliver random Critical hits; however, if the player hits a headshot, a shot to an enemy's head while zoomed in, it is a guaranteed Critical hit. Headshots cannot be hit while unscoped. The Sniper Rifle is unable to headshot for 0.2 seconds after zooming in. Unlike other hitscan weapons, the Sniper Rifle and the Sniper's other primaries are able to penetrate friendly players."
| s | GrampaSwood
(talk) (contribs) 00:48, 26 February 2025 (UTC)
- Seems good to me. 👍
- SileAnimus (talk) 01:43, 26 February 2025 (UTC)
looks good to me. seems like a good compromise. Mediarch
♥ Talk ♥ My Edits 23:06, 8 March 2025 (UTC)
Oppose yeh, I'm with swood on this. Too much tooltip. Mediarch
♥ Talk ♥ My Edits 00:58, 21 February 2025 (UTC)
Decimal separator
Current decimal separator is hard-coded to be ., however some languages (such as German and Polish) use , instead. This is mostly visible in Maximum fall-off value, which is hardcoded to be 50.8% (so it would be 50,8% here instead). Are there any plans to change that?
Fiat Seicento (talk) 13:28, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
- You can change it using
{{dec}}.
| s | GrampaSwood
(talk) (contribs) 13:29, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks, it should be working now. Fiat Seicento (talk) 13:32, 28 August 2025 (UTC)