Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion

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Why aren't bugs subjected to the same scrutiny as trivia

The bugs section on certain pages are getting quite large and getting filled with what I'd argue are trivial 'bugs'.

Why aren't we subjecting bugs to the same moderation process as trivia? I.e. why are we listing casual observations (clipping bugs), in addition to actual, substantial bugs (not working in the correct manner). Frankly, clipping bugs aren't interesting in the slightest (something is bound to clip with something else given the huge number of potential combinations in cosmetics/weapons we have, it's simply inconceivable to think Valve will cook up potentially thousands of different animation libraries to satisfy some minor clipping issue between items); I believe they should be removed altogether and replace with a note on the Hats/Misc/Weapon pages saying along the lines of "due to the limited animation set of the classes and weapons, certain items may not fit ideally with the class' pose and animations". We even have an (albeit small) section in the style guide about bugs and clipping; so why aren't we filtering?

I guess this will naturally lead into a discussion about redefining exactly what a bug is. Where do we draw the line between aesthetics/functionality/clipping? Is the lack of a fitting reload animation for the Loch-n-Load truly a bug in the strictest sense, or can we expand the definition to include cases like that? i.e. Can we justify its inclusion based on the assumption that the Demoman should be loading his grenades into the chambers ala the Grenade Launcher rather than seemingly dropping them? The weapon still functionally works, only the aesthetics are messed up. I'd argue that is a bug by the way, as it runs contrary to expected user behaviour.

Then there's the issue of view/world model discrepancies. They aren't always bugs; part of basic modelling theory is that you try and make the view model more interesting than the world model and remove parts that the user won't see on your game/mods default fov, ergo it follows that there will be discrepancies, however small, between the view/world models. Take a look at any Valve game in the past, the viewmodel is intentionally skewed. Now there's an exception with c_models where there's only one model which the game displays, so it follows that there shouldn't be any differences in world/view, so there may be a bug to note.

What about shared content? Let's take the case of the Crusader's Crossbow, it reuses the sound and arrow of the Hunstman but is that a bug in itself? I'd argue no; it's simply Valve reusing existing assets to avoid the need to record or model new assets. But then a counterpoint could be raised by way of the item's description, which states clearly that the item fires a "bolt"; what then is the definition of a "bolt"? Does an arrow fall into this definition? If yes, then it's not a bug. If no, then by all means list it as such, but don't list the re-used sound, as there's no indication that it should use unique sounds. This is the kind of moderation I'd like to see employed by the Wiki.

Although this next point extends from the previous one, there's the issue of certain weapons reusing sounds where they clearly shouldn't (Scout melees for instance); my stance is simply so: if the item has the sound override defined in the item schema, then it's not a bug except where that override is not working. We know for a fact that The Solemn Vow uses the Ubersaw sounds on purpose from only a casual glance at the schema, and I know this runs contrary to what I noted earlier about "expected user behaviour", so we should note cases like that in the opening paragraph rather than as a bug.

Which brings me to the point of unused content; these are not bugs by their very definition, they are simply unused. However, in the case where the content is clearly supposed to be used (i.e. the schema defines it as such) but isn't, then it's a bug, as we expect that content to be used but through some programmatic error either related or unrelated to the schema example, it isn't.

My stance is that there's a bug if:

• It runs contrary to the info listed in the backpack description
• There is significant disruption in the animation of the item
• The behaviour of the item was broken by a patch or through interaction from another item (i.e. unlimited Spy revolver crits from the interaction between the Sapper, Kritzkrieg and Buildings).

In addition, I feel we should:

• Discuss the bug on the relevant talk page as exemplified in the above Crossbow example; and
• Bring proof of the bug to bear, the burden of proof lies with the one posting the bug and as always we should assume good faith but also investigate if the bug is true rather than let it slip by; and
• Write up thorough guidelines defining what may be considered a bug, replacing the pitiful three lines we currently have that pretty much every editor has ignored or failed to enforce judging by the lists upon lists of clipping issues we had/have noted.

Thoughts, please. i-ghost 07:03, 18 November 2011 (PST)

 Support I think this is a very good idea, at the very least discussion about stricter bug guidelines should be started. Personally, however, at this point I agree with the ideas for bug/not bug that you have put there. -Mr. Magoolachub 16:51, 18 November 2011 (PST)

 Support I agree 100% with the clipping bugs thing. I see a lot of 'bugs' of the form 'this item will clip with the character model for a split second during a taunt if you look hard enough'. Clipping happens, it's impossible to eliminate. The only instances where I think it should be noted is when it's extreme, like the Larrikin Robin taunt. Otherwise, not noteworthy and just article clutter. In regards to other bugs, I think it's only notable if the behaviour is unintended or it's so noticeable it breaks the immersion. Basically I agree with that short list you posted. —Moussekateer·talk 16:55, 18 November 2011 (PST)

 Support The bug section certainly needs a good cleanup, but I think there's probably going to need to be a little more give in the rules compared to trivia. Sometimes a weapon might be working completely as intended, but it's just "off" like the Loch-n-Load and the Crossbow Bolts. And then there's the instance of something not being there when other, similar weapons have that. Stuff like crit glow, melee crit animations, crit sounds, etc. Something like the Detonator uses the Flaregun's crit sound when firing. This is using the sound the weapon is coded for, however, it's just odd and the player is bound to notice and think something is wrong. Something, however, like incredibly minor clipping like the Chargin' Targe clipping can totally get culled. Balladofwindfishes 17:03, 18 November 2011 (PST)

 Support Lots of good points and I agree with most, however I do think that clipping issues should still be listed for all hats and misc items. Some people put a lot of effort into gathering tems that they want for their classes to wear, and it can be annoying to find that two items clip when worn together. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 17:35, 18 November 2011 (PST)

 Comment That's actually a very good point. There's no easy way to see two items previewed on at the same time, and people may rely on the Wiki to see if there's specific major clipping errors with items. We may not want to make a hard rule eliminating all clipping errors. Balladofwindfishes 18:04, 18 November 2011 (PST)

In most cases it's fairly obvious if the item will clip, especially now that we have equip regions. A reader will simply go "oh, that goes in the this equip region, it'll probably clip with other items which go near this one", or, judging from the class images we have they'll go "oh, that's going to clip with x, y and z". These are simple observations, again something we don't allow in the trivia sections. For instance, it's fairly obvious that the Googly Gazer will clip with the Clockwerk's Helm; so would that need to be noted (as indeed it is already)? If it's obvious that it's going to clip simply from imagining the two items together on the class, does it need to be noted? i-ghost 09:38, 19 November 2011 (PST)

There's a few that aren't too obvious. The Apparition's Aspect, for example, looks like it could work with a number of items, but actually has a great deal of clipping. But those are pretty rare exceptions, so yea, I agree that maybe such a robust documentation of clipping errors on cosmetics may not be as needed. Balladofwindfishes 14:13, 19 November 2011 (PST)

 Comment What if we just remove all clipping errors about the item itself? Like the Warrior's Spirit clipping itself, or the Soda Popper's bands with the Scout's hands and also things like "The Shortstop's hammer doesn't move when firing" should also be removed. Only if it's really noticeable, like the Overdose's air cylinders. GianAwesome 09:33, 19 November 2011 (PST)

That's what I've been getting at. It simply follows from simple logical deductions and observation (again something we don't allow on the trivia sections) that new items may not always fit with old poses. i-ghost 09:38, 19 November 2011 (PST)

The case of the Warrior's Spirit clipping is because of an error the creator made with the version he submitted during the contest. It was intended to fit like it does on the current version he re-submitted on the workshop, but something apparently went wrong with the submission and we have what we have now. That's a bug in my eyes, not a generic clipping error like the Pocket Medic's ridiculous clipping bug with the laughing taunt (which I think shouldn't even be listed). In some cases I don't like a blanket rules that all clipping errors shouldn't be listed because many of them actually are errors. The blighted beak back in the day was placed incorrectly on Medic's head. Valve knew this, the creator knew this. It was wrong, and a bug. And yet a blanket statement that all item clipping shouldn't be mentioned would mean this isn't a bug in the Wiki's eyes, when even in Valve's eyes it was a bug. I don't think bugs should be as easy and rigid to moderate as trivia, because trivia is generally a fun fact about the item, but is usually unrelated to the in-game experience. For bugs, every single one of those the player has a chance to experience. I think we need a more adaptive rule of "if the player thinks this looks wrong, and it looks wrong to me as an editor, and it's reasonably fixable, is blatantly noticeable even in still screenshots, it's probably worth mentioning." However, I do have to say I agree the rest of those bugs (Soda Popper clipping and the Shortstop's hammer) are not worth mentioning. That's another thing with clipping errors in client view. Many of these errors stem from a high viewmodel setting, but I don't think Valve takes that into consideration, so those may not be bugs. Many of the clipping bugs in that case shouldn't be mentioned because, while Valve gives the option of higher view models, they don't seem too concerned with making sure things don't clip at that high of a view. Well, this is a pretty long post right now, so I just want to end it by saying I really do think we need better bug rules and a general bug cleanup, I just don't agree with a hard, inflexible rule system that wouldn't allow for bugs that the average player would perceive as a bug and would feel is missing from the article. Balladofwindfishes 14:13, 19 November 2011 (PST)

 Support I missed this discussion up until now. I definitely support it. I recently removed a "bug" from the Sight for Sore Eyes article about the model's jiggle bones freezing in place when the client's framerate drops below 45fps, complete with an explanation of the cvar that causes that behavior. How anyone can post that as a bug is beyond me. If we mention clipping it should only be in extreme cases. Likewise for view model issues; if it doesn't show up on viewmodel_fov 54 don't mention it. Dragonsbrethren 13:47, 23 November 2011 (PST)

 Support with a proposal - how about listing cosmetic and gameplay bugs in different subsections? SiPlus 03:17, 25 November 2011 (PST)

 Neutral The bug section, ever since it was implemented on weapon pages, has always come under fire from the self-righteous editors who feel strict control is necessary over 'unruly' sections. This is something I have always found obnoxious and unnecessary (why they don't turn their attention to more needy pages is beyond me), as it led to elitism and edit wars that should not be part of a community project. The point of the wiki is to inform and educate, and it is one of many sources for the community. If you start removing things that you, a select bunch of unelected people, consider irrelevant and unnecessary, you are doing nothing beneficial. You only need to look at SPUF, for instance, to see people still talking about clipping and errors that you have removed. Furthermore, you only incite new editors to try and replace this information (assuming they have not seen the discussion about removing it), thus leading to more reverts and consequently more work for yourselves. I had already attempted to bring some order to the bugs section, such as sorting by priority according to game-breaking ability. If this is not enough for some of you, I do not know what to suggest. Hence, a neutral vote. Of course I am strictly against any kind of cull you are trying to propose, but I do agree some sort of order needs to be made (hat pages possibly do not need clipping bugs). But it will be a sad day for the wiki when you start getting 'Bug executioners'. You notice how Trivia is now barren and barely touched? Bugs is likely to go the same way. --Focusknock 04:07, 26 November 2011 (PST)

Why not just move to remove the bug sections if you feel it's so much trouble? I'm only asking for some moderation, something which is mentioned in the Style Guide yet something that's somehow slipped by without being enforced or elaborated upon. You can think of this discussion as a movement to simply finish that section of the Style Guide; this isn't a self-righteous quest for some ulterior motive, I'm here for the same reason you are: to improve the Wiki. "This weapon/item can grant infinite critical hits if used in a certain way" is infinitely more useful to the reader than "this weapon/item will clip with the Demoman's left ass cheek if he performs the x taunt, but only if you move the camera to this y position". Yes, certain clipping bugs do need to be mentioned outside of the incredibly obvious ones as we've discussed above (where the reader can deduce this from images on the Wiki), but obscure clipping bugs aren't useful in the slightest, we need some sort of middle ground. Clipping happens; it's happened since launch and is a natural occurrence in virtually every video game ever, but we don't call all instances of it a 'bug'. Well, only here it seems. i-ghost 07:52, 30 November 2011 (PST)

I'm going to have to go with Focusknock on this. I've already stated this in the discussion, but just to reiterate, I think it's important that we allow bugs to be a lot more flexible than trivia because bugs are more integral to the game and are more noticed when they are missing. It's going to be a lot harder than just banning clipping bugs because some of the clipping bugs are very much bugs and are fixable (like the Blighted Beak, Dr. Woah). And if we remove the clipping bugs from a hot topic like the Loch-n-Load people are going to notice and they're going to feel that the wiki is missing information because it's not there, and I don't think we want that. Especially when we have to revert it over and over again, when having it on the page was harmless and added something to the article that people would want to read about. Balladofwindfishes 17:43, 26 November 2011 (PST)

It seems to me a solution would be to create separate bugs articles for articles with sections that get out of hand. I'm all for gameplay-affecting bugs getting prominent display in the weapon articles, but I don't think petty stuff like The Original slightly clipping through the Soldier's shoulder is worth listing in the main article at all. Dragonsbrethren 23:30, 27 November 2011 (PST)

I am strongly in  Support of removing most or all item clipping bugs. I think they're not notable at all, and people who are trying to mix and match outfits should just go do that on their own. Maybe it would be more useful to provide a HOWTO article for using itemtest. It's not in the best interest of the Wiki to enumerate such trivial things alongside real bugs. If there is a guide section for bugs best practices, I hope "item clipping" is right at the top of the list of "do not include". --Fashnek 13:42, 1 December 2011 (PST)

New point to raise: holding multiple actions

What about this so called 'bug': "While holding reload and firing" or "while holding primary and secondary fire you can (insert looping animations here)". This is taken from the Pistol and various rocket launcher pages. This is only a side effect of Valve introducing the ability to cancel all reload animations at any time, a feature not present at launch for all weapons (I can't cite the exact patch, but I have the SFM build and it's not present there). As a result, it only follows that you'll be able to force the animations to behave a little weirdly, and it's not something that's happening 'naturally' by the game; the user is forcing it (contrast with the Loch-n-Load where the messed up animations are there by default without any user intervention). Thoughts? i-ghost 07:52, 30 November 2011 (PST)

I think that is a bug, in the sense that your gun should not be trying to reload while you are holding +reload if you are holding +attack or +attack2. Even if you do remove this behavior from the lists, I think enough people will consider them bugs that they will get added over and over, and I don't think this particular instance is far enough from a bug (if it even is a non-bug) to warrant that kind of effort. I say leave +reload plus (other action) animation behaviors as bugs. As for the matter of forcing it, a great percentage of the bugs must be manually produced. The fact that some undesirable action is possible is generally a bug, in my opinion. This is especially true if it causes a sound effect in the world (Syringe gun +reload/+attack). --Fashnek 13:42, 1 December 2011 (PST)

I think in this case the user has to actively try to do the bug, doing something Valve didn't intend. Now, that doesn't mean entirely that doing things against what Valve intends is outright not a bug, but in this case, this is such a minor graphical oddity, I don't think removing it would cause people to wonder where it went. I don't forsee any edit wars trying to add it back in. Balladofwindfishes 13:53, 1 December 2011 (PST)

Item owner lists addition (HOUWAR)

You know how we have pages for owners of various items such as wiki caps and golden wrenches, should we also have one for people that own HOUWAR? (Hat of undeniable wealth and respect) Ihasnotomato

I would say maybe that kind of list would not be so good as people trade the HOUWAR all the time. It is also unknown how many people actually completed the potato pack. If there is hundreds it may not be so easy for us to list every one. seb26 17:48, 26 November 2011 (PST)

 Disagree Wiki caps are given out by the wiki and Golden Wrench owners are listed. As for as I know, there is no such list for the HOUWAR. Ownership tends to change a lot as well, making it hard to track. Scootz 17:51, 26 November 2011 (PST)

Ah, ok i didn't realize it was tradeable, thanks! Ihasnotomato

Well it is not tradable but it can be gift-wrapped (Wiki Cap, Saxxy, etc cannot) I recall seeing a number of HOUWARs on SourceOP selling for a lot in cash, it would be a nightmare to try and maintain a list like that D: seb26 22:33, 26 November 2011 (PST)

Proposing a Class Bio template addition

I'd like to propose an addition to the Class bio template; "Other Badges" or "Old Badges". Instead of having the template pull up the RED/BLU badges like it currently does, I think if added, users should be able to manually add in other badge images, like so:

| otherbadges = [[File:Sniper_badge_old_RED.png|50px]] [[File:Sniper_badge_old_BLU.png|50px]]

I'm proposing this, because as evidenced by this subpage I made in my userspace, some classes have old badges that were used in early trailers/screenshots and such. Plus, now that we have the original Skull 'n Crossbones Heavy emblem (contributed by Yeipigsl), our collection of class badges, both currently-used and from old versions of the game is complete, and we should add the ability to display older badges in the Class Bio template. Comments? Opinions? Post 'em! 404: User Not Found ^(talk) 14:44, 27 November 2011 (PST)

Oh, I forgot to mention: If this idea gets implemented, the respective images of previous badges will have to be removed from the Gallery sections on the class pages of classes with old badge designs (e.g. Scout, Soldier, Demoman, Heavy, Sniper) Also, I'm gonna toss in a  Support for myself :P 404: User Not Found ^(talk) 14:46, 27 November 2011 (PST)

I just did a preview test on the Class Bio template, and I think the following code addition, added directly below "Badges" should be sufficient for this idea to be implemented:

    {{#if: {{{otherbadges|}}} |
    {{!}} '''{{lang
      | en = Beta/Unused Badges:
      }}''' {{!!}} {{{otherbadges}}}

Just pop that in below Badges and everything is good to go. Then on the appropriate pages, you add (this is just an example):

    | otherbadges = [[File:Sniper_badge_old_RED.png|50px]]  [[File:Sniper_badge_old_BLU.png|50px]]

And boom, everything's good. I still need the community's opinion on this before I implement it, and it does need proper translations for other languages, but yeah, what do you guys think? 404: User Not Found ^(talk) 17:02, 27 November 2011 (PST)

 Neutral I'm on the fence on this. It sounds like a good idea, and wouldn't be difficult to add, especially considering that you have all the code laid out. I personally don't have a problem with it, but some users of the wiki might mistake the badges of the alpha and beta with the current badges. I'm fine with either doing this or having them just stay in the gallery section. Lets see how other users feels about this. 13:28, 29 November 2011 (PST)

Yeah, there could be some slight confusion with the badges, but I did lay out the names "Former Badges", and "Old Badges", though we could opt for something short, yet descriptive enough that people would realize that the other badges are alpha/beta badges. I did have another idea that I was originally going to post that involved adding a "Badges" section above the "Avatars" (Steam profile avatars) section on each of the class pages, and would be done with gallery tags, just like how I did it on this subpage of mine. But I noticed the existing Badges part of the Class bio template, so I scrapped the original idea. 404: User Not Found ^(talk) 14:01, 29 November 2011 (PST)

I have a better name idea. "Beta/Unused Badges". I've edited the above code to show what I mean. 404: User Not Found ^(talk) 18:36, 29 November 2011 (PST)

Gathering more user input before making changes to the Wiki

I do not think it would be unfair to say that most regular users of the Wiki are unaware that this page even exists, and why would they be, to someone who doesn't actively edit, discussion pages on the whole wouldn't be looked at, especially not a kinda less obvious one like this. While this isn't usually a problem, Focusknock's post in the Why aren't bugs subjected to the same scrutiny as trivia section of this page led me to ponder something. He makes a point about editors being a "select bunch of unelected people" making decisions for a whole community. At first I thought this unfair; the whole point of the Wiki is that we are unelected and anyone at all can join in and edit/contribute to discussions. But then I realised that, while that was true, most users of the Wiki don't do that and in fact would never even see a change like this being proposed before it was implemented.

Even though the Wiki holds doors open for any who want to contribute, many don't and don't know that changes are being proposed, but if they did may in fact not want the change at all as Focusknock suggested. When it is something that is being added this is obviously much less of an issue, but when we are taking something away, I feel the active users of the Wiki should have more of a chance to say whether they want it to happen or not. Therefore, I suggest that if someone has suggested a major revision to the Wiki's content and it has generally been agreed upon, before it is implemented there should be some form of notice on the main page perhaps, so users who don't really edit can be notified that something major is about to happen, a link to the discussion is given and they too can give their input on whether it should happen or not.

Like I said, when something is only being added or it is something somwhat minor this is not so important, and there is also the possibility that things could get a bit out of hand if a mass influx of users started giving input on something. However I feel Focusknock made a good point about a small group of people making decisions for a much larger one, even if anyone can join the smaller group. -Mr. Magoolachub 21:53, 27 November 2011 (PST)

Here's an idea; try posting on the Main Page any heated ongoing discussions. It could be something like, "Why aren't bugs subjected to the same scrutiny as trivia discussion is currently ongoing. Participate now!" or some other promotional caption to alert people to this issue. Fyahweather 21:56, 27 November 2011 (PST)

At the very least, people should be adding their discussions to the Template:CentralDiscussion template, and removing them when the discussions are removed, but they're not doing that. I was the last one to fix it up, and it's already out of date again. Even when people do adjust the template, that bar seems to go unnoticed by most people and the discussions never really get surfaced. I don't really have a solution. It's the nature of a wiki that if it hasn't reached critical mass (and I don't think a TF2 wiki ever will), there aren't enough people to have government/process self-operate. The fact is, not enough people are "on the same page" with the same level of commitment as a bigger wiki. I think the best you can do is try to surface your discussion via IRC and Template:CentralDiscussion. Maybe it's also time to look again at that navbar and decide whether that's really the best way to float up active discussions to the people who want to participate. --Fashnek 13:52, 1 December 2011 (PST)

Badges or Emblems

While I'm still on the topic of class badges/emblems, I've noticed that the Wiki uses both "Badges" and "Emblems" when referring to the class icons that most classes have on their shoulders. In most pages and in update histories, they're referred to as Emblems. In the Class bio template, they're referred to as Badges. This isn't a necessarily urgent matter, but it's something I'd like to get cleared up so I can get the go-ahead to go around and change any instances of <old name> to <new name>. The only thing I'd need administrative help with is the filenames of some of the images in Category:Class badges as a few images are named with "emblem", and the majority are named with "badge", so some re-uploads or image moves would be required to fix the naming. So what should we go with? Badges or Emblems? Personally, when I see the images, I think Emblem. 404: User Not Found ^(talk) 18:43, 29 November 2011 (PST)

I'd agree with emblem. -Mr. Magoolachub 18:10, 30 November 2011 (PST)

I'd go with emblem as well. --Scootz 17:10, 2 December 2011 (PST)

New buy button - which positioning do you prefer.

I've been working on integrating the buy button into the item infobox... here's a few variants with the button positioned in different places, please comment and note which one you prefer - with the topmost infobox being #1, and the bottommost infobox being #4. Ignore the 'Buy now' button in the top right of the page - that's the current implementation that I'm wanting to replace. -RJ 12:50, 2 December 2011 (PST)

1st positioning is the best.  –  Cructo [T][C] 12:51, 2 December 2011 (PST)

That first one is definitely superior in both placement and detail. Mainman ^{(Talk ▪ Contribs.)} 12:54, 2 December 2011 (PST)

Numero uno. MousseBOT 13:00, 2 December 2011 (PST)

 Notice Style 1 has been implemented, but I am still interested in opinions with regards to the positioning of the button, so this discussion remains open. :) -RJ 14:47, 2 December 2011 (PST)

I personally enjoyed style 3. It's not too distracting, but still visible. Mpnov 14:58, 2 December 2011 (PST)

I liked style 3 the best by far. I set up the discussion but I forgot to say anything. If this is done, please adjust Template:CentralDiscussion. --Fashnek 17:08, 2 December 2011 (PST)