Difference between revisions of "Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion"

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(Getting item contributors involved: The Concept and Design section)
(Getting item contributors involved: The Concept and Design section)
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::::::: Much better :D -[[User:Mr. Magoolachub|Mr. Magoolachub]] 19:12, 17 August 2011 (PDT)
 
::::::: Much better :D -[[User:Mr. Magoolachub|Mr. Magoolachub]] 19:12, 17 August 2011 (PDT)
 
:::::::: I'm hesitant to begin working on more though, I'd really like some more input. [[User:Balladofwindfishes|Balladofwindfishes]] 09:21, 18 August 2011 (PDT)
 
:::::::: I'm hesitant to begin working on more though, I'd really like some more input. [[User:Balladofwindfishes|Balladofwindfishes]] 09:21, 18 August 2011 (PDT)
 +
:[[User:Maggosh/Sandbox|The section, revised.]] Fixed some inaccuracies, moved information around to make it flow better. If anyone wants to proofread this as well, by all means, proceed. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 10:14, 18 August 2011 (PDT)

Revision as of 17:14, 18 August 2011

Template:Discussion archives/2011 Template:Discussion archives/2010

Supporting charities

How about the TF Wiki starts supporting charities? And with that I mean put up the HTML widget for the Humble Bundle? http://www.humblebundle.com/

I think it'd help them a lot, and it wouldn't hurt the Wiki in anyway. I have yet to see confirmation of that we're allowed to use the actual widget they provide, but I don't think Wolfire would mind it all that much.

Actual code is here, I'm e-mailing him as I type this. <iframe style="margin:0 auto; border:none;" src="http://www.humblebundle.com/_widget/html" width="410" height="150"></iframe> (source: http://blog.wolfire.com/2011/07/Introducing-Humble-Indie-Bundle-3)

Thoughts? --Mave 12:40, 31 July 2011 (PDT)

Great idea but it'll need Wiki Staff approval first. » Cooper Kid (Blether · Contreebs) 16:53, 31 July 2011 (PDT)
Without a doubt, of course. Any chance you could get the word out to them? I have no idea who to contact, hehe. --Mave 03:32, 1 August 2011 (PDT)
Almost everyone watches this page (editors & mods) so you'll probably get some more comments soon. I would first say that this doesn't seem that feasible on this site. IFrames are pretty dodgy, and they are also disabled by the software so that would not work out. If people agree to this, maybe we could link to humblebundle.com somewhere? seb26 03:51, 1 August 2011 (PDT)

All-Class emblem in navs

It would appear we don't really have a concrete idea of what to do here. For awhile we were using a question mark, but that looked just odd. Now we have a TF2 logo, but it still looks odd. Further, the icon is being removed from some templates and left on others, and it's being placed on some items but not others. Overall it's confusing and I think we need a direction so our navs don't have different styles going on between them. Personally, I think we should organize everything into class. Instead of having all the weapons organized by class in rows, and then all the hats scattered about, we should just throw the hats into the place we put the weapons, or create a second part of the nav for rows of class hats. No matter what we need a good idea of what all the navs need to look like, so we don't have various navs with different styles. Balladofwindfishes 09:44, 2 August 2011 (PDT)

Pictogram comment.png Comment I personally think that there should be neither question mark icon, nor tf2 logo, simply leave all class or multiple class items with no emblem. I also don't like the idea of splitting the navs into different rows, the navs are already massive enough as it is. MogDog66User MogDog66 Service Metal No WhiteSpace.png 00:52, 4 August 2011 (PDT)

"Basic strategy" template

There was a nice template used on each class page to list the official basic tips (those shown during the map's loading), especially helpful to prevent people writing their own "tips".

While unfortunately it didn't prevent the manual addition of tips (as Seb26 stated here) nonetheless it was useful to quickly clean up the section. "Pyros are good allies. They can help remove Sappers from Buildings using the Homewrecker or the Maul." on the Engie's page is a good example.

Keeping that section clean will be a nightmare, just like the Trivia. Should we have it back? --Kid Of The Century 08:03, 3 August 2011 (PDT)

EDIT: Concept time. Feedback's welcome. --Kid Of The Century 01:39, 4 August 2011 (PDT)

EDIT 2: Seb26 suggested a way that could please everyone, and personally I approve that. Take a look below.--Kid Of The Century 01:37, 7 August 2011 (PDT)

Pictogram tick.png Yes. How about adding all official tips (for every language) and then protect it? When new tips are added, just unprotect it, add them, and protect it again. User SackZement signature.gifSackZement (Talk) 08:12, 3 August 2011 (PDT)
Pictogram comment.png Comment Any way it could be made into a table, and then just protect the table from editing? Balladofwindfishes 08:15, 3 August 2011 (PDT)
Well, I guess so. We should come up with a proper layout though, just using the usual table model for a list might look bad.--Kid Of The Century 01:20, 4 August 2011 (PDT)
Pictogram minus.png Oppose You said it yourself: "Keeping that section clean will be a nightmare". The instant you put up tips, ever Tom, Dick and Harry thinks to themselves "I HAVE THE BEST TIP" and they go to add it. It's annoying to keep clean and you can't really blame them for adding their stuff. Even then, the tips don't really add anything to the page. Their only distinction is that they're in the game. Anything worth saying about any given weapon has very likely been said in its respective Community Strategy page. -- Alex2539 - (talk | contribs) -- 01:50, 4 August 2011 (PDT)
I'm not really sure what you're talking about: are you suggesting we should just scrap the section altogether? I personally wouldn't, but it'd be better than keep that mess. --Kid Of The Century 02:47, 4 August 2011 (PDT)
As i said, it will not be a nightmare if we protect the template. User SackZement signature.gifSackZement (Talk) 03:51, 4 August 2011 (PDT)
Pictogram neutral.png Neutral – I think the basic strategy tips should probably be copied to the dictionary (to prevent duplication of certain lines, for example the "Press E for Medic" line which appears on each page), but it is not a good idea to simply protect the page to stop people from adding things. {{Basic strategy}} was made like this last time and for months there were translations being made on the talk page because the page was protected. Protection doesn't work as well as it sounds and it will stop valid edits from translators (and not just people wanting to add their own tips). A better solution would to simply have each line in the dictionary, each set of lines in the dictionary (to avoid a #switch with Scout, Soldier, etc) and then on each page add {{Basic strategy}} again. seb26 00:14, 5 August 2011 (PDT)
Pictogram comment.png Comment. I support this dictionary idea. Let's see if people find their way through to add custom tips. User SackZement signature.gifSackZement (Talk) 00:30, 5 August 2011 (PDT)
Pictogram plus.png Agree I don't know how this dictionary thing actually works, but probably this is the best suggestion to please everyone. While at it, I'd suggest also to rename the section from "Basic Strategy" to "In-game tips" to better specify that the section is for official tips only.--Kid Of The Century 01:35, 7 August 2011 (PDT)

New Section Suggestion

I think that we should add a new section to the wiki front page, it would be small and would show "This month 1 year ago" "This month 2 years ago" and would show a small summary of important things that happened in Team Fortress 2 at that time. Such as "This month 2 year ago... The classless update was released. The Classless Update was the first non-class specific major update. The content focus of the update differed from previous updates; instead of introducing new weapons or achievements, the Classless Update added new hats, game modes and maps, while also delivering a large number of bug fixes and minor tweaks to existing gameplay."

I am open to suggestion and I hope that people like my idea. Chef Tony 04:14, 5 August 2011 (PDT)

Quite like this idea, but id want to see it in either side panels or boxouts rather than in main text. -- Swarfega  T  C  10:14, 5 August 2011 (PDT)
Might be tough to maintain manually, but a little database and a bot might handle it okay. Certainly worth considering. -RJ 10:18, 5 August 2011 (PDT)
I personally don't think it would be that high maintenance as you think. I was able to get information on 1 and 2 years in about 5 minutes. Chef Tony 10:27, 5 August 2011 (PDT)
I agree, if it only changes monthly it shouldn't be too hard to add some interesting information manually. Balladofwindfishes 15:35, 6 August 2011 (PDT)

Availability for stock weapons

As suggested by User:Balladofwindfishes on the IRC channel, should we start putting "Uncrate" on the stock weapons infoboxes?  – User Heffebaycay stslogo.png Ohyeahcrucz [T][C] 16:55, 6 August 2011 (PDT)

Technically a Shotgun and Pistol are uncrateable. Personally, I think "uncrate" and then a tooltip about it being a strange weapon might be worth considering. Balladofwindfishes 16:55, 6 August 2011 (PDT)
I am in favor of "Uncrate: Yes (tooltip this is uncratable in strange form) et cetera --SilverHammer 17:45, 6 August 2011 (PDT)

Quakecon nav box

Other promotional's such as grordbort victory pack have nav boxes. So why can't this promotion have a nav box? should it? RED Überneedle.png - Lexar - talk 17:44, 8 August 2011 (PDT)

Well, with the QuakeCon update, we aren't getting a multitude of items, like with Dr.Grordbort's Victory Pack, we are only getting The Original. So, that's why there is not navigation box. Killicon splendid screen.pngTheTimesAndQueriesOfMyAss 17:46, 8 August 2011 (PDT)

Plus the Pip-Boy, Tamrielic Relic, Wingstick, Anger.  – User Heffebaycay stslogo.png Cructo [T][C] 17:49, 8 August 2011 (PDT)
The update wasn't much different than the Summer Sale, which has a nav. I fully agree the update should have a nav, it added a bunch of content related to a specific event (QuakeCon) which is basically similar to the Summer Sale with slightly less items and a shorter sale. Balladofwindfishes 17:51, 8 August 2011 (PDT)
Here is what it would look like (excuse the title its not in the dictionary because it hasn't got a page of its own).

I may have forgotten a few thing in it. The main idea is that we can get a nav box. change the colors all you like, this is just a basic layout. RED Überneedle.png - Lexar - talk 18:14, 8 August 2011 (PDT)

Something about that seems scattered and unorganized, which is kind of funny since it's organized just like any other nav. Balladofwindfishes 18:35, 8 August 2011 (PDT)
I don't think a nav box is necessary or warranted; the Dr. Grordbort nav box makes sense since it was content that was created specifically for TF2 that is independent of anything else and was its own update, while some of the promo items from the most recent sale are from games that weren't even part of the QuakeCon package (they just happened to be on sale) at the same time). Given that, the Original is really the only real promo item, and that does not warrant a nav box of its own. ButteredToast 11:28, 9 August 2011 (PDT)
All items included were part of the QuakeCon event. The promo wasn't just for the package. On the wiki, we shouldn't make the call on what is a "real" promo or not. The fact remains the items are all promo items that all fit under a very specific theme. Such a criteria is also why we have the Summer Camp Nav and Shogun Nav Balladofwindfishes 11:30, 9 August 2011 (PDT)
I have to agree with TheTimesAndQueriesOfMyAss; the other games that happened to be on sale (such as Brink and From Dust) weren't necessarily part of the package, and just happened to be on sale at the same time as the QuakeCon package (and had promotional items). Steam has sales on software all the time, but not every sale warrants a nav box. ButteredToast 12:14, 9 August 2011 (PDT)
Nobody was talking about putting the From Dust promo into a nav. Brink was a major part of the QuakeCon sale and had an entire day dedicated to it, plus free DLC launched just for it. Brink was also made by Bethesda, who had the majority of the promos items and ad space during the event. And for the record, we do have navs for every major sale (as this was) tied to promo items. Both the Steam treasure hunt and Summer Sale have navs including their items. We don't need navs for midweek madness or daily deals, but the Quakecon sale was a massive sale that spanned 5 days and was directly related to a special event. All the promos added last friday were released for the purposes of that event. Balladofwindfishes 12:18, 9 August 2011 (PDT)
The point I was making with the From Dust reference is the fact that there can be sales of other things (that include promo items) that go on at the same time that aren't necessarily included in a sale or set; you even acknowledged this yourself after I made the point, but won't hold the other games or promo items to the same standard despite the fact that they weren't all part of the same package. That aside, just because something was "done before" does not necessarily mean that it is correct or should be continued; a lot of things that are done on a Wiki are typically done because someone else did it or some variation of it before, but it does not always serve as an ample justification or precedent. ButteredToast 13:32, 9 August 2011 (PDT)

Wikifier

Hello everyone! For more than 1 month, the wikifier script has helped the Russian Team to write articles. It a button that appears on the edit page, that calls a script when clicked. When you click the button, the Wikifier script fixes common mistakes in the article (the button only shows in the wiki editor, and you can preview what it does). For example, it puts the correct russian quotes («...» and “...” inside them), the right spaces after and before punctuation symbols (It will replace “Здравствуй , сударь ! ” by “Здравствуй, сударь!”), and fix wiki and HTML marking, etc. It is like WindBOT working in your browser. Wind and I want to make this script global. To do this, I need to know what do you, localization teams, want it to do? Can you tell me some your language-specific punctuation and typographic rules? Common mistakes that editors in your language do? --Login Soldier.pngDaniil 23:58, 14 August 2011 (PDT)

Pictogram plus.png Support I like dis new weapon :3 — Wind 00:02, 15 August 2011 (PDT)
Pictogram plus.png Support This is good applicable to the german language. User SackZement signature.gifSackZement (Talk) 01:15, 15 August 2011 (PDT)
Pictogram plus.png Support Very good idea. The Spanish team would certainly see benefit to the Wikifier. BiBi 04:11, 15 August 2011 (PDT)
Pictogram plus.png Support Iz Really Good ! Especialy when french punctuation adds spaces where other languages doesn't ! I approve of this, it sure will be useful for every localisation. Tturbo Killicon ambassadorhs unused.png (Speech voice.png / Intel neutral pickedup.png) 08:48, 15 August 2011 (PDT)

New update?

I just got the typical "Steam has finished downloading Team Fortress 2" message. No, I did not recently start reinstalling TF2. I do believe an update has occurred, gentleman. Why has nobody said anything about this yet? 404 User Not Found 15:00, 15 August 2011 (PDT)

Oh special, my TF2 is crashing on load now. What did Valve do now? 404 User Not Found 15:00, 15 August 2011 (PDT)
Because it just patched, be more patient we don't get thing done before we know when they happen. Also, I doubt this is appropriate discussion, of course updates are going to happen. - 6vKcd.pngnixshadow (t|c) 15:02, 15 August 2011 (PDT)
Yeah, it's totally appropriate discussion. No two ways about it....or however that saying goes... 404 User Not Found 15:03, 15 August 2011 (PDT)
If it was this page would be filled with over 100 topics about 9 mb updates. - 6vKcd.pngnixshadow (t|c) 15:04, 15 August 2011 (PDT)
.....Touche. 404 User Not Found 15:06, 15 August 2011 (PDT)

Getting item contributors involved: The Concept and Design section

So I was looking around the Wiki and right now we're basically set with gameplay stuff on the English pages. This site is packed to the brim with weapon stats, paint images, etc. And those are great! But a lot of people, myself included, like to know more about the design of TF2 and the items in it. I've already started to outreach with the groundwork of this idea by collecting concept art from contributors, but I feel we can go further. Right now we have some trivia elements like "this item was originally named blah blah and had blah blah as a texture" and for many article, that's okay. But many, many items have much longer, more detailed designs behind them. The Tomislav for example, went through 3 or 4 revisions (which we have images of, we have pages of critiques from others on the item). In March the contributor was contacted by Valve stating they wanted the item in the game. The creator is the youngest contributor of TF2 items ever, and this is a fact Valve has toted. A nice bunch of paragraphs could easily be written outlining the development history of Tomislav. And then there's the Shogun pack. There's an entire history of that shogun pack hidden deep in Kritzkast's archives that we only start to mention. Stuff like Sega contacting all of the polycount winners and Laro being the only one to actually respond. Sega specifically wanting Geisha hair for medic.

This also ties in with another problem I noticed. We have this large group of people who directly own a portion of this game, and are easily approachable, and yet we neglect this wealth of information that could easily fill up interesting sections. All these contributed hats and weapons lacking any sort of meaningful trivia, despite the creator standing right there, ready to be contacted and asked questions.

Obviously not every page would need such a section, but for many items, the story of the item is just not nearly as interesting in one line of trivia. I feel like as a TF2 wiki, we can remain true to the gameplay of the game while still adding things people would expect and find interesting on a wiki. Outside of game stories.

Right here is the Shiv article redone with the new section and removed redundant design trivia.

Please think about this a bit before just saying no. This is something not many game wikis have the luxury of doing. We're unique in that we have the community who designs large portions of the game and are easily approachable. Let's not ignore that resource. Balladofwindfishes 18:30, 16 August 2011 (PDT)

Pictogram plus.png Support We need stuff like that, makes the article more interesting.  – User Heffebaycay stslogo.png Cructo [T][C] 18:37, 16 August 2011 (PDT)
Pictogram neutral.png Neutral It's an interesting idea, but I think that it would be useful to canvass (I can use buzzwords too! ;)) the community, perhaps using the Steam Fora initially, in order to gauge the level of interest. If there is community support, then that would indicate that the content would be of interest and would be worth compiling. --- Killicon pumpkin.png Esquilax 18:39, 16 August 2011 (PDT)
I can ask Facepunch, Polycount and SUF and feel out the interest, if more people think this is an issue. FP/Polycount might be valuable places to gauge interest on a contributor level, especially since that's where 99% of the information for the section would come from. Balladofwindfishes 18:41, 16 August 2011 (PDT)
Pictogram plus.png SupportI second the notion of getting contributers more involved. The developement of the games items etc. is just as, if not more, interesting as the gameplay User BC sigimage.png****BCtalk 18:43, 16 August 2011 (PDT)
Pictogram comment.png Comment Daimao and Nzdjh both thought it was a good idea, plus Political Gamer seems interesting in getting map contributors on board. Balladofwindfishes 06:17, 17 August 2011 (PDT)
Well, here's a Sandbox of my idea, with the Shiv written out. The Shiv is nice because it's got a good source of development history. Here is the Shiv article redone with the new section and removed redundant design trivia. Balladofwindfishes 08:14, 17 August 2011 (PDT)
Pictogram plus.png Support I found that very interesting to read and don't think it detracted from the article at all. However, I think the positioning of the section was a bit off, I think it may be better if the section was moved to below say the Achievements section? I feel it's more important to have all the information relevant to actual gameplay presented first, before a section on the item's history is presented. -Mr. Magoolachub 19:12, 17 August 2011 (PDT)
Alright, I changed up the order a bit, does lit look better now? Balladofwindfishes 11:29, 17 August 2011 (PDT)
Much better :D -Mr. Magoolachub 19:12, 17 August 2011 (PDT)
I'm hesitant to begin working on more though, I'd really like some more input. Balladofwindfishes 09:21, 18 August 2011 (PDT)
The section, revised. Fixed some inaccuracies, moved information around to make it flow better. If anyone wants to proofread this as well, by all means, proceed. maggosh 10:14, 18 August 2011 (PDT)