Team Fortress Wiki talk:Weapon Demonstration

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Needed

Pictogram comment.png None at present


Need to be redone

Enthusiast's Timepiece Enthusiast's Timepiece

Pictogram comment.png Needs to show that you can't cap points or intel while cloaked. Pictogram wait.png This demonstration has been reserved: Ben10508 14:54, 22 October 2012 (PDT)

  • 1st time doing this, wish me luck ^_^ Scoot-teh-Destroyer 11:32, 2 October 2012 (PDT)
  • Any reccomend actions for the map I should use to demonstrate the inability to capture control points while invisible? I was thinking Dustbowl, but I think a king of the hill map would better suit it... Scoot-teh-Destroyer 06:54, 3 October 2012 (PDT)
  • k thx :3 Scoot-teh-Destroyer 08:01, 3 October 2012 (PDT)
  • ok I'll have it by the end of this weekend ;) Scoot-teh-Destroyer 06:16, 4 October 2012 (PDT)
    • Ok I have no idea why this is happening but my demos don't play smoothly (like other demos, especially the most recent ones) even though I followed all the rules and it was set on max graphics... I don't have a computer powerful enough to run TF2 in max settings, but the Demo page on the wiki says it doesn't matter... Is it my computer or how i rendered it which is causing this?
Define 'play smoothly' - if the video lags while playing it, it is most likely a compression issue. Recompress it. If you mean the video doesn't have frame blending from srcdemo2, then you've done something wrong. Pigophone 15:57, 4 October 2012 (PDT)
  • Did not have frame blending in my mind while doing it ill have it redone :p Scoot-teh-Destroyer 05:57, 5 October 2012 (PDT)
  • Ok one last issue and I will be able to record without any issues... I need Java for 32bit computers... Anybody got a link? I have a 64bit computer btw, so looking for 32bit Java is really hard on this computer. Scoot-teh-Destroyer 08:12, 6 October 2012 (PDT)
    • You can download Java here. Pick a JRE or a JDK (whichever), and then on the next page you can download it for Windows x86 (32-bit) or x64 (64-bit).
    • Since this is your first demo, I suggest that you first submit a sample clip (10 seconds or something) of whatever you want, just to check the video/audio quality. If you're going to use demo files and SrcDemo2 then it's a pretty good start, and it means you probably won't have to reshoot if the video ends up being bad in quality, but it's not the only thing that matters (video codec, quantizer settings, audio codec, A/V synchronization, etc.). So in order to check for all those things, I suggest submitting such a clip~ — Wind 16:08, 7 October 2012 (PDT)
  • Ok sure thing... I'll send a clip done with Srcdemo2 in a lil' :p. [edit] it's not launching... so right now im using vdub and a very high host_framerate for the sample :I. Scoot-teh-Destroyer 18:59, 7 October 2012 (PDT)
I think we should give Scoot-teh-Destroyer as much time as he needs because this is his first time doing a demonstration and it's even a Spy watch which is not the easiest thing to do Ben10508 19:30, 7 October 2012 (PDT)

I'm taking this demo because Scoot-teh-Destroyer seems to be having trouble. Ben10508 14:54, 22 October 2012 (PDT)

Hitman's Heatmaker Hitman's Heatmaker

Pictogram comment.png Focus comparison at 1:04 needs to be redone.
Pictogram wait.png This demonstration has been reserved:Armisael (T · C) 11:22, 22 October 2012 (PDT)

The comparison features the Rifle on the right with Focus zooming in later than the on on the left. If this is normal behavior then simply decline this proposal. Otherwise, feel free to revise and add any input to the discussion. -- ReadyAimFire 08:07, 22 October 2012 (PDT)
Bad binds, I guess. — Armisael (T · C) 11:22, 22 October 2012 (PDT)

Invisibility Watch Invisibility Watch

Pictogram comment.png Needs to show that you can't cap points or intel while cloaked.

Pictogram wait.png This demonstration has been reserved: User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 6:34 , 10/3/2012 (PDT)
http://youtu.be/bP-rJWgYlFI my very first time of doing spy watchs demo , just looked the current video seens i can't do all the things in One-Clip i had to split them. User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 6:51 , 10/4/2012 (PDT)

Shouldn't it also show how long the recharge time is?--Uknownada 14:12, 6 October 2012 (PDT)

i still need to wait for wind's reply. User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 10:25 , 10/7/2012 (PDT)
Do not scroll through weapons (1:44), press the number keys instead (scrolling through weapons is only for demonstrations where it is needed to show that the weapon is aunavailable, such as the Half-Zatoichi or the Spy-cicle). Disguise sound is clearly glitchy at 1:47 and 1:59. The teleport trail effects are also poorly demonstrated because you stay cloaked for very little time, so it is hard to see that the cloak hides the particle effect. You should consider showing this effect in third person (like Armisael's videos below) because it is easier to understand this way. It's perhaps interesting to show it on enemy teleporters as well.
Here's some other things to demonstrate that the current video doesn't: When picking ammo boxes or building parts up, don't do it in a situation where that would put the cloak meter up to full; instead, wait until the cloak meter is low enough such that picking up the thing wouldn't fill it up completely. This way, it shows the real percentage points x% of cloak gained from picking up the thing, instead of being possibly cut off by hitting the maximum amount of cloak.
The Payload cart clip is not necessary (control point is enough), however the control point clip needs to demonstrate defense as well (see Armisael's videos below) — Wind 16:08, 7 October 2012 (PDT)
http://youtu.be/H4vKXA9Fuxo User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 6:59 , 10/10/2012 (PDT)
You really should use a picture-in-picture for the first clip and the blink clip - it makes it much clearer. Also, you have a bad transition between the intel and point clips (like tv static), and your musical cut at the end is really obvious. — Armisael (T · C) 07:18, 10 October 2012 (PDT)
"use a picture-in-picture for the first clip and the blink clip" sorry i don't get it , could you explain correct? User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 10:52 , 10/10/2012 (PDT)
Show the enemy point of view, à la the CnD and DR demos. — Armisael (T · C) 07:56, 10 October 2012 (PDT)
ok i get it , so i had to re-record dat clip then? is there something i can record on the engineer's cam or something like that? sorry for bad grammar anyway User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 11:01 , 10/10/2012 (PDT)
You'll have to use two TF2 instances (or ask a friend) and run record on both of them, so that you have two .dem files. Also, there is a video glitch in the transition at 3:50. Rest is good~ — Wind 20:58, 10 October 2012 (PDT)
hope this version is good. User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 6:37 , 10/11/2012 (PDT)
Mute the audio in the engineer point of view clip. Otherwise, the sound can be heard twice (slight echo in the engineer's voice and the cloaking sound). You didn't add a picture-in-picture clip for the cloak blink clip, but that's okay, I think the current clip demonstrates it well enough — Wind 13:44, 13 October 2012 (PDT)

http://youtu.be/1TYSDxINePk User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 9:49 , 10/14/2012 (PDT)

It would be great if you could show what happens when cloak runs out (before the intel clip). Also, if you could show that when disguised as a slower class (heavy) you run at normal speed while cloaked. Darkid (talk|contribs) 10:05, 14 October 2012 (PDT)
This is already demonstrated in the Disguise demonstration, I don't think it needs to be redemonstrated here — Wind 21:03, 16 October 2012 (PDT)
You're using the concise disguise menu, and the second part of the menu isn't activating. Also, during the cp clip, when you cloak to allow the soldier to start capping, the popup says 'reverting capture' - something clearly not happening. Also, you left the clock on for the ctf and cp clips. — Armisael (T · C) 10:14, 14 October 2012 (PDT)
I've accepted other clips that had the clock on... I guess it's ok to keep the clock on (but not in the main clips). However, since you disabled it in the intel clip, you should also disable it in the control point clips.
The "quick" version of the disguise menu should also indeed be changed (use the normal menu with choices 1-9). The "reverting capture" thing is clearly a bug, maybe it's because you started the demo while you were already standing on the point or something — Wind 21:03, 16 October 2012 (PDT)
http://youtu.be/Wvka-pKKDvk User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 1:52 , 10/19/2012 (PDT)
The new picture-in-picture clip at 3:00 is good, but it uses the wrong version of the disguise menu :( Also the clip at 1:50 has audio sync issues near the end of the clip, I think you should re-render the .wav separately to fix it. Rest is good~ — Wind 19:51, 18 October 2012 (PDT)
http://youtu.be/pnuBm1z47FQ User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 7:06 , 10/19/2012 (PDT)
Is good, please upload~ — Wind 20:19, 20 October 2012 (PDT)
http://www.mediafire.com/#i2q1883cfnj44 User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 4:30 , 10/21/2012 (PDT)

Iron Curtain Iron Curtain

  • Pictogram comment.png Uses the old map
  • Pictogram comment.png Unbalanced audio
  • Pictogram comment.png No end sound


Pictogram wait.png This demonstration has been reserved:Armisael (T · C) 15:14, 21 October 2012 (PDT)

Fixed Ben10508 15:13, 21 October 2012 (PDT)

Can you please learn how to use bullet points in these lists? They're really obnoxious. — Armisael (T · C) 15:14, 21 October 2012 (PDT)
Sorry. I know you have your rights to overwrite this but may you let others have a chance? Ben10508 15:16, 21 October 2012 (PDT)
You have a funny way of asking. No. — Armisael (T · C) 16:17, 21 October 2012 (PDT)

http://youtu.be/oEUN9bbusrMArmisael (T · C) 16:17, 21 October 2012 (PDT)

Why do you like to look back then taunt? Ben10508 18:20, 21 October 2012 (PDT)
To prevent the gun from clipping with the wooden barrier, as discussed here. — Armisael (T · C) 18:23, 21 October 2012 (PDT)

Kritzkrieg Kritzkrieg

Pictogram comment.png The other two Medigun videos shows the longer a target has been hurt, the faster the heal rate. This one doesn't.--Uknownada 19:26, 17 September 2012 (PDT)

Pictogram wait.png This demonstration has been reserved: Uufje 13:30, 19 October 2012 (PDT)

If nobody minds, I'd like to do this one. Uufje 13:30, 19 October 2012 (PDT)

Power Up Canteen Power Up Canteen

Pictogram wait.png This demonstration has been reserved: User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 3:13 , 10/21/2012 (PDT)

Uploaded video has some minor mistakes.

 · The video has to show, that you can attack while being Ubercharged. This part of a video makes a feeling, that you can't.
 · You can show, that it is available for all classes, but the demonstration itself could be made by Engineer only to short the time.
 · Video didn't show that Crits bottle increases Sentry's shooting speed. One more point for Engineer demonstration.
 · Video didn't show Medic's ability to share the effect.
What do you think about it? Limie Pie Painted Sign of the Wolf's School 32CD32.png 00:12, 24 September 2012 (PDT)

All important points - especially the Sentry firing speed one, as that isn't explained very well in-game. » Cooper Kid (blether) • (contreebs) 04:34, 24 September 2012 (PDT)
And it needs to be shown that "Building Upgrade" can do that building that is under the constructing can go to level 3 and don't have to construct no more. --InstantMan 16:40, 24 September 2012 (PDT)
@Cooper Kid, I think it really need to show because it'll appear when equipped Canteen with Crits, even it isn't explained very well. User Hinaomi Hinaomi-sig.png Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 07:49, 24 September 2012 (PDT)
First one isn't really important but if we're going to redo it, might as well fix that. Second one is to show which classes have access to which upgrades and for consistency with the way that multi-class items are demonstrated. It's not ideal but it's not too bad either. Third one and fourth one are pretty important.
While we're at it, two other things:
  • Someone in the comments says that while the instant-upgrade canteen is active, you can build new buildings and they will instantly be upgraded. Is that true?
  • Someone in the comments says that we should use the MvM music for this. I agree, it makes a nice change, same as using the saxxy music for Saxxy

Wind 18:45, 24 September 2012 (PDT)

also, it should show that upgrade canteens heal buildings, but do not restock ammo. Isildur4 09:38, 2 October 2012 (PDT)

Alright — Wind 16:08, 7 October 2012 (PDT)

i'm ready to redo this one , so wind could you tell me ALL the things need to show? i don't really want to miss something. User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 7:36 , 10/13/2012 (PDT)

Things i found out , that are probably should show in this redo:

  • Medic , "Share Canteens" you can share the effects of your Canteen to who you are currently healing
  • Engineer , using "Übercharge" you can uber your sentry too Only Sentry
  • Enguneer , using "Critical Hit Boost" can increase doubles firing rate of user's Sentry Gun for 5 seconds

Well that's all i found , did i missed something? User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 11:50 , 10/16/2012 (PDT)

Does the "ammo" one refill sentry ammo? If so, then that should be shown. Should also show that it refills engineer metal and spy cloak — Wind 21:03, 16 October 2012 (PDT)

No , it won't i tested in game. User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 1:41 , 10/17/2012 (PDT)

Pyrovision Goggles Pyrovision Goggles

Pictogram comment.png Domination and revenge in Pyroland.

Pictogram wait.png This demonstration has been reserved: User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 5:31 , 10/14/2012 (PDT)

The Pyroland-incuding item demonstrations don't show everything there is about Pyroland, I'm not sure this really needed. But if someone feels like it, why not — Wind 19:16, 8 October 2012 (PDT)

If someone feels like it....well if you want to , I'll take this job for a start. How about it Wind? Irufort 12:15, 9 October 2012 (PDT)

i don't agree that is needed. User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 4:43 , 10/9/2012 (PDT)
If you feel like it then do it... However Karmacharger didn't record .dem files for this, so if you want to redo it then you have to redo everything :( Which is very long and very tedious to do. But if you do decide to do it, then make sure to record .dem files so that the next person won't have to restart from scratch — Wind 20:58, 10 October 2012 (PDT)
about the .dem it's not going to happen next time , anyway i was the previous demonstrator of this but i don't care feel free to take it. User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 12:32 , 10/11/2012 (PDT)

i think i should take care it myself , as for the Domination and revenge in Pyroland should i show it as split screen see what's different? and also what did i missed to show on the previous video. feel free to let me know. User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 7:43 , 10/13/2012 (PDT)

You said "feel free to take it" but now you say "i should take care it myself". Do you want to take this demonstration? — Wind 13:44, 13 October 2012 (PDT)
i'm sorry i just changed my mind. User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 12:39 , 10/14/2012 (PDT)

i done a example clip here http://youtu.be/vNC_qGtQkAg , hope it's the best way to demonstration it. User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 12:27 , 10/14/2012 (PDT)

Like the other clips in this demonstration, the split-screen clips shouldn't be played at the same time. They should have a delay so that both sounds can be heard separately, without the voice lines overlapping each other. Also, there's a big video glitch on the left clip at 0:10. Lastly, you should use something other than a Pyro's flamethrower in the first clip. It makes a lot of noise (both audio and on the interface) which overlaps the domination sound. Use something more subtle like a Spy with a revolver or a Pyro with a Fire Axe or something like that. Lastly, it'd be preferrable to reload after the voice line is complete so that the little reload noises don't mix with the voice line — Wind 13:44, 13 October 2012 (PDT)

Sorry for taking a large time , i was too busy with school stuffs But i am still working on it everydays. User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 10:01 , 10/19/2012 (PDT)

My pc keep getting blue screen again and again while rendering some clips clips , i'm getting afraid of this. User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 8:56 , 10/21/2012 (PDT)

Sandman Sandman

Pictogram comment.png Needs to show that you can stun disguised spies.

Personally, I don't think this is necessary (since it doesn't identify the spy's team at all). — Armisael (T · C) 05:35, 20 October 2012 (PDT)
We just redid those two, let's not go for another round — Wind 20:19, 20 October 2012 (PDT)

Saxxy Saxxy

Pictogram comment.png Special considerations: Must use Saxxy music at the beginning, must have the same video quality standard as current version (1080p, 30fps with 50fpf blendrate or higher, graphics settings maxed out, and uploaded in lossless format)

Pictogram wait.png This demonstration has been reserved:Wind 22:27, 1 October 2012 (PDT)
Pictogram wait.png This demonstration has been reserved:Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 06:02, 8 October 2012 (PDT) in place of Wind.

Question What is "50fpf blendrate"? User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 10:30 , 10/7/2012 (PDT)

50 frames per frame. Also, I don't think I will get the time to make this demonstration >: If someone is going to do this, I request that they upload (on mediafire or something) a video file containing Scout clips only, which matches all the conditions above, so that I can check the quality — Wind 16:08, 7 October 2012 (PDT)

I'll take it if you can't. Tell me if I can reserve it, though; I don't want to be in the wrong here. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 20:10, 7 October 2012 (PDT)

Reserved, but I left yours up there too just in case. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 06:02, 8 October 2012 (PDT)
Good luck, this is the one demonstration where I won't accept anything but perfection :3 — Wind 19:16, 8 October 2012 (PDT)

Still working on it. Large project, sorry it's taking a tad longer. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 20:25, 17 October 2012 (PDT)

Remember, I only wanna see the scout part first — Wind 19:51, 18 October 2012 (PDT)

Yeah, I was working on that. It should be done really soon. Mr. Vinderack, not as sober as you...thin..yah... 20:28, 18 October 2012 (PDT)

Questions and Proposals

Note: This section is for questions and proposals that aren't specific to a single weapon. If you think a demo ought to be remade, then make an entry for it in the Need to be Redone section above and it will be dealt with.

is anyone looking for longer version of each demonstration music?

5 minutes version of each songs , it is for these people who needed this. ending sound is another file so don't worry. User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 09:12 , 5 July 2012 (PDT)

http://www.mediafire.com/?3o4xsap1s51k253. Here is a 10 minute version of it if anyone needs this Ben10508 09:22, 24 August 2012 (PDT)

Are there any other video recorders besides Wegame or Fraps?

Wegames isn't working for me, as it won't record properly, and I can't spend money on Fraps. Any other alternatives? --Enthers. (I find this work intriguing. How about yourself, sir?) 21:33, 17 June 2012 (PDT)

dxtory maybe, but it's not free and haven't tried it. I used to use Taksi years ago (very very long ago), it probably doesn't work with recent games though. Otherwise, this is the Internet, so I'm sure you can find ways around barriers — Wind 22:09, 17 June 2012 (PDT)
But if I use any other video recorder, is that allowed? Do I need to use the full version of fraps? --Enthers. (I find this work intriguing. How about yourself, sir?) 22:35, 17 June 2012 (PDT)
you can find the cracked version of fraps , search on youtube make sure many peoples commented it's work. i'm also using the cracked version. User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 06:48 , 17 June 2012 (PDT)
The only reason the full version of fraps is required is that it includes a watermark at the top of the video, which is unacceptable. Any screen recorder can be used, as long as no traits are left. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pigophone (talk) • (contribs) 07:23, 18 June 2012
I use Bandicam myself, works well. --Org 22:40, 12 July 2012 (PDT)

You could try Unregistered Hypercam2. That always works fantastically.--Uknownada 20:51, 8 September 2012 (PDT)

Doesn't it put that annoying watermark I see on a lot of youtube videos? — Wind 01:30, 9 September 2012 (PDT)

Kill-Assist Video Demonstration Request

I have no idea what should be shown, but at the moment there is only this:
Assist demo.png
, and that is not really a "fluent" Demonstration. So let's talk about that, shall we? TheDoctor 19:09, 26 July 2012 (PDT)

Pictogram plus.png Support This image is not from official map. We should do at least image or video. 08:40, 27 July 2012 (PDT)
Pictogram plus.png Support But not as part of the weapon demonstration project. Do your own video and maybe pass it by me if you want a QA check but use th article's talk page or PM me — Wind 17:10, 1 August 2012 (PDT)

Strange Weapons

Just an idea I had, but would it be a good idea to demonstrate how strange weapons accumulate ranks? --Dattix 16:38, 1 August 2012 (PDT)

Again not as part of the weapon demonstration project (although it is closely related). Feel free to use this talk page for that though because I'm not sure where else it'd be put — Wind 17:10, 1 August 2012 (PDT)
This would best be done as, say, the scattergun only. On the strange page. I don't know what you'd do, though. Show arbitrary ranks... show killcams... show the rank up...? Darkid (talk|contribs) 20:45, 31 August 2012 (PDT)
Strange scatterguns are a bit hard to come by, but i do have an extra strange bottle i'm willing to donate to this cause. Isildur4 14:22, 9 October 2012 (PDT)
Isn't this really a technical demonstration? — Armisael (T · C) 14:22, 9 October 2012 (PDT)
I have a strange scattergun, but if we do need to demonstrate this, will I have to reset the kills because I have a lot kills on it and I don't want to wipe it, ever Ben10508 14:44, 9 October 2012 (PDT)

Mann vs Machine stats

Should something be added, or a separate set of videos be made, to display the different effects that different sappers have on the robots in MvM mode? I'm not sure how it would be done, but it's just a thought. Onyyx 05:18, 27 August 2012 (PDT)

Someone talked about this before~~~~. User Hinaomi Hinaomi-sig.png Hinaomi (talk) - (contributions) 05:32, 27 August 2012 (PDT)
It's an entirely valid point - I should've moved that discussion here when I archived anyways. I've changed the title to a more general topic - should we demonstrate MvM stats for weapons, and if so, how? Part of the normal video? A new series? — Armisael (T | C) 06:21, 27 August 2012 (PDT)

IF we do start a new series with MVM, would we have to show upgrades and stuff? Ben10508 13:15, 27 August 2012 (PDT)

To avoid redoing massive amounts of work, I think it shouldn't be in the regular videos. Perhaps a single video per class about MvM, or per class+slot (Scout primary, Scout secondary, etc.) Anyway, let's not worry about that until the main demos are done — Wind 16:56, 27 August 2012 (PDT)

Valve Rocket Launcher Demonstration

So many youtube comments asking about Valve Rocket Launcher Demonstration , i can't think if this is an part of the weapon demonstration project D: User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 12:04 , 10/21/2012 (PDT)

Pictogram plus.png Support I guess it would make a funny video. Why not? I think the problem would be the feasability of this. It should be easy to make it look like you have the rocket launcher, but not sure how feasible it would be to make it have all the attributes — Wind 20:19, 20 October 2012 (PDT)
Pictogram cross.png Against Save the sillyness for april fools. — Armisael (T · C) 20:46, 20 October 2012 (PDT)
Pictogram plus.png Support TFWiki's April Fools is all about items looking legit - the Valve Rocket Launcher is legit, albeit only one person has it :3 Pigophone 21:06, 20 October 2012 (PDT)
Pictogram comment.png Against Keep this project until April's Fool 2013. User Hinaomi Hinaomi-sig.png Hinaomi (talk) • (contributions) 21:15, 20 October 2012 (PDT)
Pictogram plus.png Support Real weapon, needs a demo TheGuy299 06:12, 21 October 2012 (PDT)
Pictogram cross.png Against I agree, this should be some kind of April Fool's video. On a side note, I wonder if we can invite Mr. Walker himself to make a demonstration video of it. I mean, of course we can change some scripts and do it ourselves, but I think it'd be more novel and interesting for the real thing to be demonstrated. (They've been quite supportive of the wiki anyway, right?)
Pictogram cross.png I'm all for no—We did the Circular Circlesaw for april fools, but we also did a page on that weapon. This is a random weapon, which should not have the stats that it does. Where would we put this video? Darkid (talk|contribs) 11:09, 22 October 2012 (PDT)
Pictogram cross.png No Not a "real" weapon in the sense it's in the schema as a unique item and can have a page, etc. A demonstration of a Valve weapon used as part of a more larger item quality demo would probably be the best route, but that video isn't really needed either. Balladofwindfishes 15:26, 22 October 2012 (PDT)

Technical Demonstration

Shouldn't the Trading Demonstration be under the Technical Demonstration channel? Ben10508 15:13, 21 October 2012 (PDT)

agree , it always should be. User Karmacharger Charger 2.png Karmacharger 8:56 , 10/22/2012 (PDT)