Help talk:Style guide/Trivia

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New set of guidelines

I believe there is a need for a new set of guidelines in relation to Trivia sections. I propose that we discuss here what purpose trivia sections exist for, and what content can be included in them. Opinions of all are welcome. seb26 [talk] 05:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Honest, I'm starting to see the Trivia section being used as a free "put meaningless tidbits here". I honestly don't know what should really go there, as I feel it should just be scrapped out, but that just makes a mess. If anything, it should have information that you would normally not know, such as the L'Etranger bits. --Vaught 05:23, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
It should be for information that is amusing or helpful, nothing more --Firestorm 05:24, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
There should be no place for rumour, conjecture or unsubstantiated guesswork. This happens a lot when people assume something is a reference to pop culture. If the trivia item contains the words "is likely a reference to", there's already one red flag. Basically, it might be interesting to note that The Sniper with the Bloke's Bucket Hat looks like Henry Blake from M*A*S*H, but you should assume or guess that the hat is in fact a direct reference to it.
Another thing I think should be avoided are the "X is one of # Y's to have Z". For example, the Hound Dog page used to say "This is one of five hats to add an accessory in addition to the hat itself", then it listed the others. Statements like, "X is the only Y to have Z" should also be avoided.
One of the major points however should simply be "If it can be fit into another section or page, do so." There is a lot of trivia that could be worked into existing articles. Getting rid of that will go a long way toward cleaning things up.

-- Alex2539 05:30, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm curious what you guys think about "history" bits that fill up the trivia sections. "X used to do y until [date] patch. It now does z." I think most should go. For example, I think that the nag mode in KOTH's history deserves mention for being interesting and relevant. However, I could care less if a certain weapon made a character's hands disappear for one day in 2008. Opinions? Subtlefuge 07:40, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree. There's no need to mention every old bug that has been patched. There are some that are noteworthy, like the "Overtime" bug you mentioned since that's actually still in the game and its history is itself the explanation for its existence. Also, major gameplay changes should probably still be noted (not that I can think of any at the moment). Otherwise, if you read the item and think "Why should I care?" then it should probably be deleted. -- Alex2539 08:04, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
I have attempted to add a 'Previous Changes' section to the weapon articles. Players should be able to quickly look at how the weapon originally worked and come up with their own ideas what the weapon can be used for or how they should respond to it. This should divert some of the trivia additions away to here. I might add a 'Bugs' section as well, with the same idea in mind.--Focusknock 17:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
We should include use of weasel words [[1]] in the guidelines, it covers most of what we undo and is used on other Wikis--Markd 16:44, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Minor Bugs

Why are minor bugs considered 'not trivia'? They seem like the exact right kind of thing that should be trivia. Inkybinky3 - inkublu (talk)-15:35, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

'Do not' section

This comes across too negative in my opinion. It should not be "DO NOT DO THIS", instead, it should be "This is discouraged". The main focus should really be on what is encouraged, i.e. what should be included. seb26 [talk] 05:27, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Split

The trivia seems to split into two broad sections one is gameplay notes such as the knife is upside down, its coded as a club not a kukri etc and then eagle feathers are a mark of power the second is trivia the first is related to the game, the second may be mentioned in the comics or merchandise or release blurb. In effect we have its in the game trivia and its in the background stories and articles trivia. These seem like a better split and will aslo remove the this hat is one of only two that ere not actually hats that the civilian wears in game type trivia--Markd 12:54, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Maybe we should have two sections: Pop-culture references and game universe trivia. -- ShunyValdez 03:34, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
Internal and external trivia? --Firestorm 06:12, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
Something like that. But I would prefer other names. Internal and external is too ambigious and can confuse people (which trivia goes to which section). -- ShunyValdez 12:04, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
"Pop Culture References" is pretty dangerous. People tend to see similarities to things they enjoy whether they're there or not. Because they see it, they label it as a "reference". A reference should be something deliberate by the creators, not a guess by the fans. I like the idea of having a distinction between the two types though. One solution, for the class pages at least, might be to extend the Bio sections. Currently they are just the official ones distributed. It seems to me that most of the in-game trivia pertains to the classes personalities and behaviour, so they could be easily rewritten into paragraph form to fit there. Then, the Trivia sections could be reserved for real-world information. --Alex2539 20:43, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Technical Trivia

The class trivia sections are littered with highly technical information about character models, game files, and other "hammerspeak" tidbits. Although I think this information is useful, and I am not opposed to some sort of highly technical project, I don't think that the average user cares or needs to know about which classes have exponent textures. Subtlefuge 04:30, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. Can you give an example? In general though, I'm not opposed to highly technical information, but perhaps if there is enough of it, it could become its own section. Valve has made it clear that community contributions are a large part of TF2, so I think trivia items that give technical details that may be useful for people looking to make hats, maps or whatever should be kept. -- Alex2539 06:11, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
I think he means something like adding in that the Frontier Justice lost its normal maps during the Polycount update. It's something that probably should be mentioned in the article, but it's not really trivia, and if you don't know what a normal map is, it's lost on you. -- Balladofwindfishes 12:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Normal/Developer variants

Quite a lot of weapons have trivia stating that there exist Normal weapons (whatever that means) and developer weapons variants of said weapons. I think those are completely useless. Yay or nay? --CruelCow 16:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

completely useless, we'll remove them --Firestorm 16:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Some pointers

Trivia does need cleaning, but not because somebody thinks it's stupid, or they think it's made up, or it makes the article look too big. The guide needs to reflect this. Put in points that suggest where to move certain pieces to other areas, like taking things such as jigglebones, bugs and previous changes and move them to the relevant areas of the article. Suggest to users to add links to blog posts or wiki pages if they need to. Cleanup should not mean decimation.--Focusknock 17:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

  • Additions to Trivia that are more pertinent elsewhere in the article, or belong in other articles, should be added to those areas. For instance, helpful tips for using Your Eternal Reward more effectively should be added to the Spy Strategy article instead of a Trivia section.
Something like that? -The Neotank ( | Talk) User The Neotank Signeotank.gif 21:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Trivia Versus Tips

I noticed some of the trivia on most of the articles is nothing more than tips. Things like "Frontier Justice does not gain revenge crits from a Dead Ringer Spy activation." That's not trivia (in the same sense as "Frontier Justice was created by the Engineer's Grandfather"), that's a gameplay tip. Shouldn't stuff like that be better suited to either a "tips" section, or better yet worked into the strategy article for the class/weapon? Another example would be the Rocket Jumper, where a trivia bit mentions that you can stop fall damage by shooting a rocket right before landing. That's not trivia, that's a blatent strategy for Rocket Jumping. Just because the Rocket Jumper is used to Rocket Jump doesn't mean it needs rocket jump strategy regulated to trivia. I tried fiing this and it was quickly reverted. -- Balladofwindfishes 12:36, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

You do make a point... We'll discuss it. – Smashman (talk) 13:34, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Extra criteria

I'm concerned some users are going around deleting trivia because they feel it's useless. There's way too much subjectivity involved. I suggest all trivia deletions should be supervised to prevent abuse--Focusknock s 17:36, 6 November 2010 (UTC).

Who is going to supervise, and how are they going to do it? ~ lhavelund (talk β–ͺ contrib) 17:37, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
Well a lot of us are sitting around in the IRC doing nothing (I know I am), so it wouldn't take much to just take a look at the edit, see if it's ok or not, and undo accordingly.--Focusknock s 17:38, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
...so what are you suggesting we do differently? What you're suggesting is already going on, as far as I know. ~ lhavelund (talk β–ͺ contrib) 17:39, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
I've been doing a lot of cuts recently myself. I've been trying to follow the guidelines but the problem is a lot of the 'trivia' is trivia in a loose sense of the word. Feel free to undo any of my edits though. Moussekateer 17:41, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
The past few edits that I have made have been subject to this as well; unfortunately, subjectivity usually takes the front seat when it comes to a Wiki as everyone has a different perception of what is (and what is not) trivial, and there will always be a few strong-willed individuals who will demonstrate this by editing articles accordingly. ButteredToast 19:02, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Do not state the obvious

"It can easily be assumed hats and miscellaneous items are purely cosmetic." With the Polycount update this is no longer true. Shouldn't the example be changed? Lemon 22:20, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

A minor edit could be added to specify that certain items (when worn as part of a set) do grant in-game bonuses. ButteredToast 19:10, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

The "obvious"

Isn't the term "obvious" way too subjective to be included in the guidelines? Who decides what's "obvious" and what's not? I'm afraid deleting some trivia items just because they're "obvious" to long-time players might be way too "harsh" for the newcomers. (if you get what I mean, excuse me for my English, it's not my main language)

Also I find it ironic how it mentions Hats and Misc items being purely cosmetic as an example when (sadly) it's no longer true even back by the time this article was created... Stabnrun 01:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I assume you are referring to the set bonuses. In that case, the hats themselves are still purely cosmetic, it is the entire set that provides the bonus. You could wear just the hat from the set and receive no bonus whatsoever. The hat is purely cosmetic, albeit required for a set. Regardless, that a hat is a part of a set is considered both obvious, and would already be mentioned on the page so it would not be trivia. The example stands. -- Alex2539 -- 05:25, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
The fact is that no matter which way you put it they ARE a condition to the set bonus and if you don't have the hat you won't have the bonus, so they DO have an effect even though it might not always be active. You can't say it's purely cosmetic when you might get a bonus that otherwise you wouldn't get. Anyway this is getting a bit off-topic. Stabnrun 11:48, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite of the style guide

Because so many users are referred to this guide, I felt it was important to get it written more clearly sooner rather than later. That isn't to say it is any more important than the rest of the style guide, just that more people are referred here then any other part of it. I have placed it in my userspace at User:Alex2539/Trivia_Style_Guide_proposal for now and it is open to comments and modifications. I mostly just expanded on what was already there and took into consideration some of what was said on this talk page. Some of the more important additions in my opinion are the examples. Some of the guidelines can be a little bit vague and it helps to see an actual example of what it means. Some of them only have examples of "Poor trivia" (I avoided the word "bad" deliberately) because there is no simple example of "Good trivia" beyond "not this". I also tried to avoid using examples from the Wall of Shame since I wanted them to be similar to the types of trivia that are commonly added rather than dipping into extremes. What do you guys think? -- Alex2539 - (talk | contribs) -- 08:36, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I like most of it, well done. I don't get your Razorback example though. If an item's name or description is a direct pop culture reference, like Your Eternal Reward for instance, I don't see why it shouldn't be included in the trivia section. Stab ! 12:36, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
The point of the Razorback example is that it is not a pop-culture example. Your Eternal Reward is an obvious and admitted reference to Aladdin, but the Razorback/Spider-man connection is only a coincidence. It just so happens that they were named after the same animal and have similar characteristics, but they are not related and the TF2 item certainly does not reference the super villain. It's just a coincidence and not worth mentioning in that article. -- Alex2539 - (talk | contribs) -- 19:30, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram plus.png Support: "Now that there was a fine piece 'a work." --CruelCow (talk) 18:13, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram plus.png Support I agree with you on that we need more examples to be more clear on what constitutes bad trivia. Moussekateer 18:16, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram plus.png Support This new version is a definitely big improvement; I particularly applaud the focus to be made on analysing what is good trivia and what is not, as well as accepting subjective problems. If anything, this will help dissuade those intent on removing any and all trivia in order to simply gain edits.--Focusknock s 18:29, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram comment.png Comment Yes, I felt that one of the most important things was to not only say what should count as trivia, but to demonstrate it as well. When you show people something and say "This is what I mean, and here's why..." each guideline becomes a little bit more obvious. There are some that are still going to be tricky due to their subjective natures, such as what is "obvious" and what is "interesting", but hopefully the threshold for disagreement can be narrowed. -- Alex2539 - (talk | contribs) -- 19:30, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Random thought: Do the removed trivia lines need to be linked? There's no need to cite that they did exist, so it really only creates a watered down version of the Wall of Shame. --CruelCow (talk) 03:16, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
I put the links in as proof that they are in fact real examples, but it's not exactly high up on the priority list and I'm not 100% attached to them. I can understand that for such minor examples we might not want to point fingers at specific members, but I do think it's important that the examples at least are real edits. If others agree then I'm completely okay with removing the links to the trivia. However, I think they would all have to be removed, good and poor, for consistency's sake. -- Alex2539 - (talk | contribs) -- 06:20, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram neutral.png Neutral It's far too extensive. Most editors who add trivia will tl;dr that. I know that we need a rewrite, though. -- Pilk (talk) 18:59, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
How about adding a wikipedia:Template:Nutshell to the page? Stab ! 19:29, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
No. I'm not going to put up a cheap summary of the page just to cater to people's laziness. If someone doesn't think it's worth their time to read then they will just have to live with all of their edits being removed. If they continuously ignore the guidelines after having been referred to them, they run the risk of being blocked from editing. -- Alex2539 - (talk | contribs) -- 21:05, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
This is completely the wrong attitude to have. People get angry because they get confused as to why their edits got reverted, referring them to an essay is not going to fix the issue. -- Pilk (talk) 21:07, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
Have to agree with Pilk, it'd probably be best to have both; one as a detailed reference and one people can look at to get the gist quickly.--Wilsonator 21:09, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
Well tbh. if somebody is a tl;dr-guy, they're probably wrong at editing a wiki because you have to read A LOT, for example if you want to add trivia to the heavy article, you have to (should) read the entire page to check if it's already in there.
But how about adding a in a nutshell box like wikipedia does [2]? Because lets be honest, the current checklist is not very helpful. --CruelCow (talk) 01:36, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm going to cave on this one. CruelCow put up a Nutshell there (while I was out of the house and not looking, no less) and looking at it now, I actually think it kind of works. Maybe it's because the summary is so surprisingly apt. My only grip with it now is that it's not TF2-themed, but I'll get over it. -- Alex2539 - (talk | contribs) -- 03:58, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
I find it really amusing that I got bashed for suggesting exactly the same thing a couple of paragraphs above. Oh well. Stab ! 19:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Solving "is a reference to"

I think a good way to fix the problem of all the "is a possible reference to" trivia items, rather than deleting them altogether, would be to make a new "Connections" section for connections to reality and other works. Instead of taking the form of "The X is a possible reference to Y, or maybe Z", each item takes the more substantive form "X resembles Y". For instance, rather than saying that the Tough guy's toque is "a possible reference" to Jayne Cobb's hat, there would be an item under "Connections" stating "This hat resembles the one worn by Jayne Cobb in the television series Firefly." --STUART 12:57, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Heavy references. But random speculation doesn't even belong there. --CruelCow (talk) 13:14, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram nope.png Nope.avi There's really no place for this sort of thing. The connections people make are often tenuous at best and rarely relevant at all to the item. By creating a section like this, you just give everyone free range to add whatever slight similarity they see between one item and another. That's not informative, that's clutter. -- Alex2539 - (talk | contribs) -- 23:14, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Jigglebone trivia

Pictogram comment.png Result of discussion: Jiggle bones is the best place to note which items have jiggle bones or not. Stating and item has jiggle bones is not worthy of trivia. -- Pilk (talk) 22:43, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

This creator also made x trivia

I've noticed a widely inconsistent use of this trivia. It's mentioned on some pages, and not on others. Further, we're at a point in TF2 now where a creator could have created a dozen+ items, and I feel like this sort of trivia has long overstayed its welcome. Where do we draw the line? Do we list all the weapons Royzo or Laro has made on every single item they made? The list of self-made items, plus the links on the infobox to the creator's backpack seems like plenty for users who are curious as to what else the creator has made. Thoughts? Balladofwindfishes 18:40, 24 July 2011 (PDT)

Perhaps instead of linking to the creator's self made weapon of each weapon that was community contributed it can go to a Wiki page that lists all community creators and what they've created? I have to agree, this particular type of trivia is more trivial than trivia. Thenyproject 18:50, 24 July 2011 (PDT)
We already have a list of all the self-made items and who made them, List of Self-Made item owners. That more than suffices. Balladofwindfishes 18:54, 24 July 2011 (PDT)
Then it seems like a good choice to me to remove it from the trivia pages for weapons/hats that have creators that have made 2+ things. Thenyproject 19:05, 24 July 2011 (PDT)
Yea, I want to remove them, but I'd like to have some more input, maybe from a mod about this. Balladofwindfishes 05:20, 25 July 2011 (PDT)

Need a revision for the "Not Trivia" Subsection

It is fine in quality, just the specific example refers to an issue with 2 misc items being unusuable simultaneously, as this is no longer the case, it should be fixed. My two cents β‰₯Darkid≀ 09:13, 9 January 2012 (PST)

Previous Changes

"If it is a statement on the way an item once functioned, then it should be placed in the Previous changes section of that page." This is mentioned here, but I don't think it exists. Has someone tried implemented a previous changes section? Upgrade 18:11, 8 March 2012 (PST)

Hijack

Why does steam only give you one hijack undo? I recently got hijacked and got my stuff back. Steam sadi that I only get one undo, but I beive somenoe still has my password. Be aware of this. If you get hijacked try to move your stuff to a new account or else you might not get it back. Johnmail1235 16:13, 4 December 2012 (PST)

That is a steam issue, not a TF2 one. Besides, wouldn't you change your password once you got back into your account? --Piemanmoo 16:20, 4 December 2012 (PST)

Not Trivia Stereotypes/Community Figures.

I believe that we should clarify that in the "What is not trivia" section that Trivia can't be based on stereotypes or what community figures say, i know its kinda blatantly obvious, but some people don't get it and i've seen a couple of revisions about stereotypes/what community figures say. User MrJohnson Signature.png MrJohnson (talk) 21:01, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Adding a point about trivia regarding the community being invalid

I have read the article a few times, and, to me, the things that come the closest to explaining why trivia regarding the community, like "The Chicken Kiev has also been referred as the Pootis Bird by many fans" or "This cosmetic is know one of the most popular cosmetic in the community just because how cursed it looks" (two invalid bits of trivia removed from articles), are "Trivia should be relevant facts about the item in question" and "Trivia should not state how a characteristic of an item relates to the characteristics of others". However, neither has examples regarding the community - the former's talks about a Spiderman villain, and the latter's examples are about connecting one item to one or more other items.

I think a point specifically talking about why/how community-related trivia that is more about the community and less about the article's subject - as in how the subject was received by the community (examples: see above) rather than how the community has influenced or served as basis for the subject (example: how the Pyro Shark is based on Pyrosharking) - is invalid would be helpful for explaining to people why it is invalid. Having it listed somewhere would make it seem more official as well, rather than "just a mod's opinion", as I imagine some people could see it ("Oh, yeah? Where does it say that's invalid trivia?"). - BrazilianNut (talk) 19:40, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

I support this. Not much more I can say. Specifically mention how it should be the basis of the item (like Pyro Shark) and not something that came after.
GrampaSwood (talk) 19:49, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Trivia should not be about community popularity of an item, including popular use or nicknames. Such facts are better placed in Community fads or the Glossary of player terms. M I K A D O πŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 06:40, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
Trivia should not be about community takes on the article's subject. Things like popularity, common nicknames, and community fads are the community's response to the subject, and do not affect the subject itself.
BrazilianNut (talk) 19:10, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
I would add, "This is distinct from the situation of acceptable Trivia where Community response to other items or game elements has influenced the subject of the article (e.g., Pyroshark)." .πŸ¦ŒπŸ¦ŒπŸ¦ŒπŸ¦ŒπŸŽ… M I K πŸŽ„ D O 282. ❄❄❄❄❄❄ ❄❄ ❄❄ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 19:31, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Examples:
Good trivia: The name of this item refers to the playstyle of a Pyroshark, in which a Pyro hides with the Neon Annihilator in water and attacks enemies that enter it. (from Pyro Shark)
This trivia talks about the subject's origin and basis. Since it was based on something from the community, that means the community has had direct impact over the subject.
...Or...
Good trivia: The Insult That Made a "Jarate Master" Out of Sniper marked the first appearance of Saxton Hale. At the time, Saxton Hale was a one-shot gag, but later proved popular with the community and became a notable figure related to Team Fortress 2. (from Comics)
This trivia talks about how the community's reception of Saxton Hale resulted in Valve giving him a bigger role in the Team Fortress 2 universe.
I prefer the second one. The Pyro Shark trivia is a simple case of "This item is based on X", which is not different from "This item is based on [character] from [character's origin]" - it just so happens that the basis is something from the community. Saxton Hale, however, is not a community creation, but it's thanks to the community that he is what he is now.


Trivia should not be solely about the community's take on the subject. Things like popularity, common nicknames, and community fads are the community's response to the subject, and do not affect the subject itself. This is distinct from the situation of acceptable Trivia in which community response has influenced the subject.

Examples:

Good trivia: The Insult That Made a "Jarate Master" Out of Sniper marked the first appearance of Saxton Hale. At the time, Saxton Hale was a one-shot gag, but later proved popular with the community and became a notable figure related to Team Fortress 2. (From Comics)
In this instance, the community's reception of Saxton Hale had a direct impact on his role and on the Team Fortress 2 lore.

Poor trivia: This cosmetic is know one of the most popular cosmetic in the community just because how cursed it looks.(sic) (Removed from BINOCULUS!)
The item's popularity among the community has not affected it or the game in any way.

What do you guys think? - BrazilianNut (talk) 04:37, 7 December 2019 (UTC) (PS: I added "(sic)" to the poor trivia because of the many mistakes in it)

Comics Notes&Trivia formatting

We have been working on consistently formatting Notes&Trivia sections on the Comics. The format is specific to Comics since so much of the observations made are specific to pages. It used to be that the page was mentioned at the beginning of a point, at the end, in-between, or not at all. Moreover, the points usually had no organized order.

The general for format we have been using is

  • use glossary labels rather than headings for structure (so as to not pollute the TOC)
  • lead the sections with general points having no specific page, structured as needed with glossary label indentation
  • order the page-specific points from cover to back

Format:

Notes/Trivia

  • general blah-blah
Cover
  • cover blah-blah
  • more cover blah-blah
Page X
  • blah-blah for stuff on Page X
Pages Y to Z
  • blah-blah for stuff on Pages Y to Z

So,

  1. How has that been working for you?
  2. Should this formatting be added to any style guide?

M I K A D O 282 πŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 23:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Notes versus Trivia

This is related to discussion of the recent XofY tag on Meet the Spy; see Talk:Meet the Spy#Notes versus Trivia

Somewhere along the way of cleaning up Trivia, I noticed a (every?) Comics pages having a separate Notes section (and Item pages for items having not so obvious technical facts not (yet?) covered elsewhere in the page).

The point of a separate Notes section, as I have seen and applied it, is to provide a place for recording particular notable and/or useful information about media contents (comics/movies/soundtracks) that are very standard for us to include "below the fold", but doesn't conform to Trivia rules. Usually, these are observations, but cross-issue or cross media observations, or they are page to page continuity error observations. But, Notes is not meant as a way for contributors to escape conforming to other Trivia rules.

Note, this is different for the present state of many Movie pages, which seem to have started out with a Notes section, which have really been just a disorganized section with mix of valid Trivia and lots of observations.

None of this concept is presently covered in any style guide, IIRC. Should it be?

Disjoint Consideration:

"This is the first mention of <class's> name." "This is the first Valve-made TF2 short to feature Miss Pauling, and the second ..." Technically, these XofY as far as I can understand the concept. Given that, I haven't decided whether such points are Trivia (in spite of XofY) or Notes.

Your thoughts? Has the development of Notes vs. Trivia been effective?

M I K A D O 282 πŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒπŸ¦ƒ (talk) (Help Wanted!) 00:49, 9 November 2020 (UTC) 01:11, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

What is defined as a reference?

Does a reference count as a reference if it was made as a reference after it was made? Might sound confusing, but consider Graveyard's reference to a TV show. It wasn't a reference to begin with, but then was "made" into a reference after they noticed a similarity. Is it really a reference in this case? I'd argue against this, as the original idea/intent didn't have anything to do with the reference.
GrampaSwood (talk) 07:37, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

This is a common enough case of a well-known old idiom being referenced in the game, but because the idiom is old and well-known, there are many independent references in common culture, but even so the game is often not referring to any of those. B referring to A and C also referring to A does not imply B referred to C. I see nothing in the sign that refers the the TV Show, but clearly the sign exist only because of the idiom; "pushing up daisies" is an idiom for "being dead and buried".
  • Existing Policy: "Trivia should be ... be facts." The sign simply does not refer to the show, therefor the present Trivia is not a fact.
    • Because it is not a fact, potentially speculation, the present Trivia should be removed. QED
    • However, maybe the artist really did refer to the show, in that there would need to be a non-broken citation.
  • Also, the idiom reference is Trivia a about a company sign.
    • Trivia about a sign on a map usually does not belong on the map page.
    • The sign could be added to List of companies, with the reference to the idiom or citation.
M I K A D O 282 πŸŽƒπŸŽƒπŸŽƒπŸŽƒπŸŽƒπŸŽƒ πŸŽƒπŸŽƒ πŸŽƒπŸŽƒ (talk | contribs) (Help Wanted!) 12:09, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
OK, after fixing the link, I more clearly see the question.
M I K A D O 282 πŸŽƒπŸŽƒπŸŽƒπŸŽƒπŸŽƒπŸŽƒ πŸŽƒπŸŽƒ πŸŽƒπŸŽƒ (talk | contribs) (Help Wanted!) 03:17, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Trivia about the object rather than the item

I have seen plenty of trivia entries that go into detail about the object or its origins, rather than the item itself.

For example, the first entry in the Blighted Beak Trivia currently goes on about the history of beak masks, how they were used by plague doctors, how they would fill the beaks of these masks with fragrant stuff, how this would sometimes (but not always) work, etc. None of it is related to the item; it is all about the object the item is.

I think it would be nice to include that trivia should be about the item, not about the object the item is. If people want to learn more about this type of hat or that kind of shirt, then let them click the Wikipedia link in the first paragraph of the article or in the trivia entry itself (and if there's no Wikipedia link, then let them do their own research). This is the Team Fortress Wiki, not the Hats Wiki, nor the Masks Wiki, nor the Military Vehicles Wiki... - BrazilianNut (talk) 13:27, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

The first guideline already says Trivia should be relevant facts about the item in question. What you describe pretty much b(r)eaks this guideline (Get it? Because Blighted Beak). Some history about how the item is fine, but one or two sentences are fine.
GrampaSwood (talk) 21:59, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


In a word, "Yikes!"
All of those TVIOs should be cut down to two sentences!
Link w:Plague doctor costume.
M I K πŸŽ„ D O 1 8 Ho Ho Ho .πŸ¦ŒπŸ¦ŒπŸ¦ŒπŸ¦ŒπŸ¦ŒπŸŽ… (Contact Mikado282 (SM) | contribs) (Help Wanted!) 03:21, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Trivia about the object rather than the item II

I would add that it should be sufficient to state somewhere, Trivia or lead and/or provide enough linkage for the reader to understand the appropriateness of the item to the character.

Rereading the topic, it looks like I volunteered to "fix" it.

I see now, though, that the OP was in response to reversion of an edit that removed the trivia "about the object".

Maybe more later.

M I K A D O 282 βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™ βŠ™βŠ™ βŠ™βŠ™ (Contact Mikado282 (SM)) | (contribs) (Help Wanted!) 12:34, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Digging deeper.

"Gun fans" is not a particularly accurate or helpful term.

"History buff" or "old fart" might be more accurate, but are still dismissive.

I don't necessarily want this to be about the Shovel, but it is all I have time before work to use as an example.

The statement "The Shovel is based on the U.S. Army M-1943 entrenching tool." could very well be absolutely true, and there are sound, historical reasons to make this a melee weapon for Valve's characterization of Soldier, but where the heck are you going to get a RS citation out of Valve?

Remember, I am only a little older than the silverbacks that created TF2. As I mentioned to Yossef, these things were all over the place in 1968. They were abundant war surplus items and are now collectables. When Dutch Elm Disease killed all of the trees around the playground (c. 1968-1970), the principal handed very similar (but post-war, too late for Soldier's character) M-1951s out to us kids to dig up the stumps. As we dug, the stumps became foxholes and dirt clods became grenades ..., some of us got spanked for that, some of us became Doom and TF2 developers.

I think the wiki looses something generational when the origins of the items are not mentioned. I have mentioned that much more inane observations are included in most of the item leads. I get it that without citation, mentioning the shovel's historic U.S. cultural relevance in trivia could be tagged speculation, but I think clearer mention in the lead would be the better way. "The item is a stylized folding shovel of the type developed in WWII for U.S. solders to use both for digging and as ancillary weapons."

I will try to expand this to the broader topic, but another night.

P.S. Thanks to the topic, I now finally understand why our school's shovels had the folding pick attachment that always has seemed missing on Soldiers Shovel. It is because the 1943 WWII version didn't have the pick, and so, the pick would be anachronistic to the character. "Mystery solved!"

M I K A D O 282 βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™ βŠ™βŠ™ βŠ™βŠ™ (Contact Mikado282 (SM)) | (contribs) (Help Wanted!) 13:28, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

The issue for this is that here have been several times where people "correct" it to a gun they think looks more alike due to several reasons. It's better to avoid all of that + possible speculation by simply playing it's a stylised weapon. Linking it in the way you suggested (as in, calling it "shovel of the type developed in WW2 for U.S. soldiers") but linking to a specific one anyways is just indirectly saying it's inspired by that, which shouldn't be done either. Overall, not a huge amount of value is lost if we don't say the specific type of weapon.
GrampaSwood (talk) 13:58, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Understand, I am not a gun or weapon researcher; the information on the TF2 weapons are very easy to come by in most cases.
"stylised" IMO, that is generally unnecessary and undefinable, and therefore, I think, not useful; because under the TF2 art style, everything is stylized. But even then, there are Valve items that are so historically detailed, like the Shovel, that it is in fact speculation to say it is "stylized." (Wait! It is missing the pair of lashing holes.
Why even have " It is a hand-held entrenching tool with a splintered handle." "Splintered" is observational, and as you say, where is the proof that it is an entrenching tool?
"if we don't say the specific type of weapon" Why even state it is a specific type of tool? Where is the proof of that?
linking to a specific one Instead of even mentioning the M-43, suppose we link to an array of U.S. shovels that include AFAIK the only one that looks like the Shovel. Wow, that's actually a very good site, but just three U.S. Shovels!
Contrast the Short Stop where the developer identified specific weapons as models, picking and choosing parts, yet the origins of the different parts are identifiable, especially to dissuade the original editor's notion that it was a "pepper box"
I will point out that the Nazis invented the folding mechanism, but the blade has easy differences, and why would Valve give Soldier a Nazi shovel?
The art of Valve's Shovel is actually very specific.
If you were interested, here is an array WWII E-tools. Maybe this would work for a link?
The state military cemetery uses the IRL Shovel model in the graveside service. Yes, we buried Dad last year with the cemetery's IRL Soldier's WWII US Army shovel.
"This item is similar to entrenching tools issued to U.S. Solders and Marines in WWII." The WP WWII entrenching tools section has only the M43, but not a good picture.
M I K A D O 282 βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™ βŠ™βŠ™ βŠ™βŠ™ (Contact Mikado282 (SM)) | (contribs) (Help Wanted!) 02:33, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
My apologies GrampaSwood, I would collapse my preceding post if I had the technical competence. I was out of control.
I did just this morning look again at the original post on this (SMG == MAT-49), maybe my I don't have the reflex on that edit as I don't know the weapon. I only glanced at the edit war to know you most likely had matters in hand. I do understand and appreciate your point that it is very easy for a large amount of weak speculation points to be posted. I have removed a few such things myself. You know that I do give partiality to conveying the history that TF2 tributes. When the page was ported from the old wiki in 2010, the M-1943 was already mentioned. Precedence is not everything, but you can appreciate the difficulty of holding a treasured M-1943 and being told it doesn't look just like Soldiers shovel, and wearing issued US tanker boots and being told they don't look just like Mantreads.
M I K A D O 282 βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™ βŠ™βŠ™ βŠ™βŠ™ (Contact Mikado282 (SM)) | (contribs) (Help Wanted!) 10:11, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
The point of calling it "stylised" is because it's made to fit the TF2 artstyle, it's not speculative because it does not look like a realistic shovel. As for your point on "splintered" being observational, that's completely okay. Observation is only not allowed in trivia, the intro of the paragraph serves to give a description of whatever item is being talked about. As for it being an entrenching tool and where the proof of that is, it's literally called "shovel", there's no proof needed there. As for a link, just a wikipedia link to entrenching tool will do.
GrampaSwood (talk) 10:58, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Pictogram info.png  I agree with Gramps, by naming adding β€œstylized”, it already implies that the item in question was made in order to fir the style of tf2. Some items can be inspired by real world, but because an item looks β€œobvious” to some people, it does not mean that the creator took inspiration from any real world scenario. A good example is the Death Stare, although that the item resembles the protagonist of MediEvil, the creator confirmed that originally it wasn’t and that its just mere coincidence. I prefer people providing any sort of proof whenever they refer that an item x resembles or looks like y, just to avoid any future misinformations and be as much accurate as possible, since any resemblances could be just coincidental, yet again, as Gramps mentioned, there is no lost value if the user can’t find any proof and does not include it, either as Trivia or in the item’s description. Yossef | Talk | Contributions 20:00, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Huh, never noticed the unfolding animation when equiping?!?!?! So, I would gratefully appreciate your patience for another go at the lead:
"Shovel" clearly doesn't does not mean "entrenching tool", which as you have seen is a specific military term. It is >only< the modeled features of the item that suggest that it is a military entrenching tool:
(a) a short handle and small blade for portability and for perfect utility when digging a foxhole while you are hidding in it
(b) the hinged blade can be set in various positions, as a shovel, a hoe/adze, or collapsed for packing (see the item's animation)
(c) its unfolding action is specifically animated in the game (someone once posted, "it can't be a real shovel, it is floppy rubber")
(d) the click on unfolding is not unlike the actual sounds these shovels make at the hinge
(e) yes, the thing does "barely dig holes", unless someone is shooting at you and their perfomance greatly improves. No really, in peace time, they are rather frustrating to use,
(f) the barrel nut on the model always loosens.
"It has features of the folding type of entrenching tools developed for digging foxholes and for hand-to-hand combat in WWII: It has a short wooden handle with a splintered end. The blade is hinged to the handle, and the weapon makes an unfolding animation with a metalic click whenever Solder draws it. Two rivets attach the blade to the stamped metal bracket of the hinge. Below the hinge is a barrel nut (normally used for locking the blade in a position). All metal parts are painted grey, but some paint on the blade has been scratched or has worn away."
M I K A D O 282 βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™ βŠ™βŠ™ βŠ™βŠ™ (Contact Mikado282 (SM)) | (contribs) (Help Wanted!) 04:26, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜So I'm not entirely sure anymore what the point here is, if you really want to avoid calling it an "entrenchment tool" because of some weird point you're trying to prove then go ahead but I have legitimately lost the point of this conversation.
GrampaSwood (talk) 10:38, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

I must be a poor communicator. If anything, I was trying to express that "entrenchment tool" would be the way to go. My intended "weird point" is that the model itself is only evidence that the model represents a WWII entrenchment tool. "Shovel" in no way implies "entrenchment tool"; "entrenchment tools" are military tools that usually have a shovel part, but most shovels are not entrenchment tools.
So, (I think) this returns us to the basic issue and disagreement. Except for the model, there is no citable evidence that the item is any sort of military equipment appropriate to Soldier's character.
The proposed description was in no way meant to be sarcastic, with no intention to "avoid calling" it an entrenchment tool. If anything, my research for this discussion has me seeing "folding entrenchment tool" as better than M43, and the description above is a sincere proposal for the item's page, misplaced as it may be in this discussion.
But, as I am struggling to communicate, this now goes back to the basic question at hand for Trivia policy. The Shovel's appearance (with animation) is still the only basis for calling it a "folding entrenchment tool". As I understand, the standard for deletion being enforced is, in general, "the thing cannot speak for itself", meaning that the items in the game may not be used on the wiki as evidence of what they are or represent, even in the Lead.
M I K A D O 282 βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™βŠ™ βŠ™βŠ™ βŠ™βŠ™ (Contact Mikado282 (SM)) | (contribs) (Help Wanted!) 13:02, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
The reason it got removed is because it had caused quit some controversy recently, including an edit war or two. The whole issue is that the item speaking for itself is causing these arguments, because one person might think the gun looks like one IRL weapon, while someone else might think it looks a lot more like another one. Arguing about whether or not the Shovel is an entrenchment tool is unproductive.
GrampaSwood (talk) 13:17, 2 September 2022 (UTC)